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buying preparations on the open market

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #45 on: <08-12-13/1956:25> »
-1: If you want an official ruling, ask for one in the FAQ topic. Don't go rave and rant on it and then leave it to others to ask for you. If you find it confusing but do not ask, you will not get an answer.

0: Alchemy won't suck just because you cannot put it on ammunition and be done with it.

1: There's a difference between a temporary joining and the parts combined being a whole. Otherwise tossing a physical spell at a camera wouldn't damage the camera but just the one outside metal plate that you happen to be targetting. An arrow is an object. A bow is an object. A commlink is an object. A bow+arrow is, however, not a single object.

2: Aura needs more explanation yes. However, if you're claiming gloves are sufficient, then how does a contact trigger even go off?

3: If you throw a throwing knife at someone, thus performing an attack action, then yes you cannot use the Command action to set off the offensive preparation on the throwing knife because it'd clearly be a double attack. This is unrelated to it going off on Contact, and has nothing to do with making a Touch Attack to cast a Touch Spell because the touch attack as part of the touch spell is 1: Part of the SAME Action, and 2: does not do damage. And yes, that barrier manifesting would then be an attack action, so if you already did an Attack action that Action Phase it is not allowed. Trying to munchkin being able to use 2 Simple Actions in 1 Action Phase for 2 Attack Actions is, by developer call, out of line no matter what case you're trying to argue.

4: If the lynchpin gets damaged, the spell fizzles. No I will not define this. First of, it's common sense, which automatically eliminates liquids and play-doh by being selfdestructive in nature. Second, the official definition will be in the errata, as clearly stated by the developers. If you have specific details you want to check first, because you are unwilling to rely on common sense, then ask them to the developers in the FAQ topic, not to us.
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Unahim

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« Reply #46 on: <08-12-13/2028:05> »
4: If the lynchpin gets damaged, the spell fizzles. No I will not define this. First of, it's common sense, which automatically eliminates liquids and play-doh by being selfdestructive in nature. Second, the official definition will be in the errata, as clearly stated by the developers. If you have specific details you want to check first, because you are unwilling to rely on common sense, then ask them to the developers in the FAQ topic, not to us.

I don't really feel liquids are "damaged" until there's a part of the liquid no longer connected to the main body of it. That likely excludes grenades, though.

But imagine using the water in a small glass as the lynchpin for an acid spell! Nasty! (It wouldn't turn the water -in- acid, it'd more just splash acid onto you as soon as you drank it, but it still sounds amusing)
« Last Edit: <08-12-13/2029:43> by Unahim »

ZeConster

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« Reply #47 on: <08-12-13/2034:56> »
I don't really feel liquids are "damaged" until there's a part of the liquid no longer connected to the main body of it. That likely excludes grenades, though.

But imagine using the water in a small glass as the lynchpin for an acid spell! Nasty! (It wouldn't turn the water -in- acid, it'd more just splash acid onto you as soon as you drank it, but it still sounds amusing)
The thing is, though, the book's descriptions make water an unlikely lynchpin:
Quote from: Page 304
The object used as a preparation must be small enough for the magician to lift, handle, and manipulate. The magician alters, marks, sculpts, or otherwise adds a creative touch to the object in the process of making it a preparation.
So ice or playdoh might be doable, and the glass the water is in would definitely work (not sure if it would count as 3 or 6 on the Object Resistance table, though), but water itself seems out of the question.

shinryu

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« Reply #48 on: <08-12-13/2037:57> »
0. alchemy that takes several minutes and doesn't work half the time isn't vastly inferior to summoning an invincible kill-tank from nothingness in three seconds or a computer-guided machine gun? you have an interesting definition of not sucking. i am not sure it is the one customarily used in english.

1. common sense says the shaft is not the arrowhead and the blade is not the handle. there's no soul connecting those two things together to make them into an organic whole with an aura like a metahuman, because they're not living objects. and, yes, you could target the handle separately from the blade in my opinion. i'm reasonably sure one could interpret pouring mana into a single plate of a camera and making it melt as causing secondary damage to the rest of the camera, so i don't really see how you have a case there.

2. contact trigger is skin contact. easy enough. otherwise we're carrying contact preparations around with tongs all day or wearing foot-thick wetsuits to keep them just far enough outside of our auras not to go off. stupid.

3. so i resolve the throw as a touch attack. i'm not trying to do damage, it just needs to either pierce skin (for contact) or get close enough (for command). if that's not kosher, then that's frankly bullshit.

4.  liquids are self-destructive in nature? please let me run from all of these volatile bottles of water around me then! thank you for that lifesaving warning, i would have perished in when they self-destructed, probably within mere seconds! oh shit, the water is still there. i'm sure it'll self-destruct any minute now. plus, if alchemy can't do fucking MAGIC POTIONS, wow, holy shit, seriously, catalyst? that's not even fantasy novels, that's straight-up quasi-historical records of chinese people drinking quicksilver potions. that's fail as fuck.

again, i'll wait on official rulings rather than answers from the population of a forum that seems to really rock the self-reinforcing "everything is fine" sing-alongs. hopefully said rulings will either fix these issues or confirm that catalyst has no idea what it's doing so i can drop my interest in the game.

ZeConster

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« Reply #49 on: <08-12-13/2041:52> »
4.  liquids are self-destructive in nature? please let me run from all of these volatile bottles of water around me then! thank you for that lifesaving warning, i would have perished in when they self-destructed, probably within mere seconds! oh shit, the water is still there. i'm sure it'll self-destruct any minute now. plus, if alchemy can't do fucking MAGIC POTIONS, wow, holy shit, seriously, catalyst? that's not even fantasy novels, that's straight-up quasi-historical records of chinese people drinking quicksilver potions. that's fail as fuck.
I don't see why you feel the need to be so hostile about this. It seems pretty clear to me he meant that the water, as a liquid, isn't quite permanent enough in shape to be a lynchpin.
Also, you can still have "magical potions" - just put the spell in the bottle.

Unahim

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« Reply #50 on: <08-12-13/2047:12> »
just put the spell in the bottle.

I am incredibly amused by the notion that they've essentially reversed the roles of the bottle and the thing inside it, well, kinda :p

Crunch

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« Reply #51 on: <08-12-13/2049:48> »
I personally don't see anything in the rules prohibiting a liquid (or a suspension).

A lot of what's being discussed here is in the realm of "what makes since in my game" not the realm of RAW.

Shinryu, you really need to calm down.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #52 on: <08-12-13/2057:14> »
0: Ignoring the attempt to make a sixth topic about Spirits, what do you mean with that it won't work half the time, when there's plenty of tricks as long as you don't try to tie Alchemy to ammunition? Heal spells can be stored up, damage spells can be spread around and activated just like grenades would, illusion and manipulation spells can be put on the ready for when the drek hits the fan, etc.

1: What kind of secondary damage? Provide a fair answer that proves the rules do not see an arrow, a sword, a commlink, a camera as single objects but as a collection of objects and I will grant you your case. If not, then sorry but no, I got a perfectly fine case. I do grant, however, every GM the right to rule this in finer detail. But RAW does not support your point.

2: In other words, Contact will never work as an offensive action against anyone who fully covers their skin unless you pierce the armor, correct?

3: Yes, that'd be fine. If you throw a bottle or such, then the Attack Action clearly is trying to use your lynchpin. So for Command that'd work fine. If on the other hand you use ammunition which also causes damage, then Contact would be the only legit way to let it go off in that same Action Phase.

------------

4: If you actually do not understand what I meant, I'd find it reasonable for you to ask me what I meant. Since you did not ask but instead launched into a hostile rant, I will assume you knew perfectly well that I meant the lynchpin, not the liquid, would immediately end up destroyed and deliberately misinterpreted my words to cause a fuss. This opinion is supported by your clear intent to not actually ask the developers your questions but instead only argue to other people about it, despite you claiming you do not want to debate them in the first place. Right now all you're doing is throwing input at us and stating at the same time you will not accept our output in response, while not providing developers with input and demanding output from them anyway.

In short terms: Either you will ask in the FAQ topic, you will no longer post in this debate or you are a troll. We are past any other options now.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #53 on: <08-12-13/2058:03> »
I personally don't see anything in the rules prohibiting a liquid (or a suspension).
The thing is, I'm not sure what kind of creative touch you can add to a liquid that won't disappear when it mixes with the liquid. If you manage to think of something, then it's possible.

Unahim

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« Reply #54 on: <08-12-13/2102:54> »
I personally don't see anything in the rules prohibiting a liquid (or a suspension).
The thing is, I'm not sure what kind of creative touch you can add to a liquid that won't disappear when it mixes with the liquid. If you manage to think of something, then it's possible.

Would adding colouring to make it fabulous work? Like using organic material mashed together with alchemical reagents to colour and infuse the liquid.

Crunch

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« Reply #55 on: <08-12-13/2110:45> »
I think the very process of traditional alchemy, or something like cooking or perfume making which is certainly creative.

RHat

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« Reply #56 on: <08-12-13/2222:33> »
1: There's a difference between a temporary joining and the parts combined being a whole. Otherwise tossing a physical spell at a camera wouldn't damage the camera but just the one outside metal plate that you happen to be targetting. An arrow is an object. A bow is an object. A commlink is an object. A bow+arrow is, however, not a single object.

For the sake of clarity, I have a question regarding order of operations:  Per your argument, what happens if an alchemist uses an arrowhead as a lynchpin, and then uses Magic Fingers to attach the arrowhead to the shaft?
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Mirikon

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« Reply #57 on: <08-12-13/2311:15> »
First off, Shinryu, you need to smoke some deepweed and chill out.

0. alchemy that takes several minutes and doesn't work half the time isn't vastly inferior to summoning an invincible kill-tank from nothingness in three seconds or a computer-guided machine gun? you have an interesting definition of not sucking. i am not sure it is the one customarily used in english.
Alchemy takes several minutes to set up in advance, but has the same success rate as a spell would, for what its trying to do. The problem you're having here isn't with alchemy, but with you trying to do things that alchemy isn't supposed to do. Alchemy != grenades. And, to be fair, most combat spells aren't that great as preparations, except as traps. Where alchemy really shines is in setting up a Physical Barrier spell on the wall, so as you're running past on your way out, you give the command, and a wall pops up between you and the corpsec, or other such things.

1. common sense says the shaft is not the arrowhead and the blade is not the handle. there's no soul connecting those two things together to make them into an organic whole with an aura like a metahuman, because they're not living objects. and, yes, you could target the handle separately from the blade in my opinion. i'm reasonably sure one could interpret pouring mana into a single plate of a camera and making it melt as causing secondary damage to the rest of the camera, so i don't really see how you have a case there.
Sorry, but hair-splitting gets you nowhere. Demolish Guns works just fine on the whole gun, not just the barrel. Shatter hits the whole camera, not just the lens. The arrow is a single unit. The bow is a single unit. End of fragging story.

2. contact trigger is skin contact. easy enough. otherwise we're carrying contact preparations around with tongs all day or wearing foot-thick wetsuits to keep them just far enough outside of our auras not to go off. stupid.
See, this is why I say you need to readjust your thinking. For contact preparations, you either carry them in place, or you keep them in a container. A bottle containing a potion of Armor, for instance, or a bag containing an Improved Invisibility charm. Your clothes are considered part of your aura. A bag you're carrying is not. Contact trigger preparations are best done in place. They are extremely inconvenient compared to other preparations, which is why they impose less drain than Command or Timed preparations. Remember, that anything without an aura of its own can be made as a lynchpin, so taking a piece of chalk and spending a few minutes doing a magic circle on the floor along your escape route will allow you to leave a surprise for the corpsec who may be following you, provided everyone in your team remembers to jump over it. Step on the circle and boom!

3. so i resolve the throw as a touch attack. i'm not trying to do damage, it just needs to either pierce skin (for contact) or get close enough (for command). if that's not kosher, then that's frankly bullshit.
A contact preparation would go off when you tried to throw it, unless you still had it in a container of some sort, so unless the person took it out of the container, that's not happening, regardless. If you, say, had a soccer ball with Fireball prepared on it, and tossed it to the target character (simple action) you could then conceivably set the spell off with a second simple action and the Command trigger, yes. My personal favorite, however, would be to prepare an arrow with a spell, shoot it, and then trigger it your next pass. Works especially well if you have passes left, and they don't, or if they aren't expecting it. But no, you couldn't do both in the same pass.

I won't even comment on the rest, because it isn't worth my time.

1: There's a difference between a temporary joining and the parts combined being a whole. Otherwise tossing a physical spell at a camera wouldn't damage the camera but just the one outside metal plate that you happen to be targetting. An arrow is an object. A bow is an object. A commlink is an object. A bow+arrow is, however, not a single object.

For the sake of clarity, I have a question regarding order of operations:  Per your argument, what happens if an alchemist uses an arrowhead as a lynchpin, and then uses Magic Fingers to attach the arrowhead to the shaft?
I would say that would disrupt the preparation, unless it was designed to be removable (some modern arrowheads are threaded so you can switch them depending on what you want to do, IIRC). Magic fingers isn't so great with the fine control, so it would be difficult to make an arrow with it, IMHO.
« Last Edit: <08-12-13/2316:28> by Mirikon »
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RHat

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« Reply #58 on: <08-12-13/2336:10> »
I would say that would disrupt the preparation, unless it was designed to be removable (some modern arrowheads are threaded so you can switch them depending on what you want to do, IIRC). Magic fingers isn't so great with the fine control, so it would be difficult to make an arrow with it, IMHO.

Well, if I'm being more technical, Magic Fingers is simply a stand-in for "a method for affixing the arrowhead to the arrow without making contact with the arrowhead in a manner that would trigger the preparation".  Getting a drone to do it, or something, would work just as well.

For that matter, what if the shaft were also a preparation, and if you wrapped a paper preparation around the shaft? 
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Mirikon

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« Reply #59 on: <08-13-13/0533:24> »
I'd say that turning shaft and arrowhead into an arrow would disrupt the preparation, in general. Either one could be prepared normally, but combining them would create a new object. Otherwise, you could have someone arguing that each screw, plate, and so on in a drone could be prepared with a manaball preparation, just fly the drone into a crowd of enemies, and set them off one after another. Going along that road leads to massive brokenness. Now, higher up the order of manufacturing (and with more object resistance, natch) you could, perhaps, put a preparation on, say, the tire of a truck, and another one inside the truck itself. But it is generally a bad idea to go too far along that path.

Preparations generally fall into two categories: traps and utility spells. Any combat spell (as well as spells like Petrify) are best done as traps. Have the preparation in place ahead of time, and then lead the enemy to the target. Utility spells, such as Heal, Combat Sense, or Physical Barrier make for good preparations to carry around with you, and unleash when the time is right. If taking proper precautions (such as using tongs to place them in a bag) then they could even be done as a contact preparation. But in general, Contact preparations are too sensitive to make for good 'talismans' to allow mundanes to tap and then get the benefit of the spell. Which is why you often prepare such things in place. As I said, chalk or marker on a floor tile could prepare a nasty surprise for people, but trying to make them into magical grenades just does not work. The best I can say is throwing a knife with a Command tag attached, and then detonating it on your next action.
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