[Psikerlord]

Its a game. if the troll race is tougher and stronger it needs to be balanced with somethign, and dumber is one of the options the devs went with. Its fine. You can still have logic 5 trolls cant you, thats a super smart troll right there, just not genius smart like some very rare humans might be.

[benedictmercury]

All good and fair points, and I can dig why people roll with it as is. Except one thing: trolls aren't suffering from inequality because the world isn't fair, they're stuck with it because they DESERVE it.  They are 2070's scientifically justified noble savage.

2070 is 57 years from now. That long ago was 1956. Can you imagine someone in that year saying 'hey, I got this game, it's in 2013 and you can play this new race that recently developed! They aren't very smart, but MAN can they dunk like crazy! Don't even START me on how they RUN! And it's not weird or anything, because although they vote, pay taxes, own property (well, I mean) and obey laws just like us, THEY ARENT HUMAN, so if they're mostly janitors, fry cooks or pro athletes it's totally cool!'

No. You can't imagine that.

So I'm not supposed to draw analogies between trolls and the African American stock that, even eighty years ago, was alleged by the 'credible' to have been bred stronger but dimmer, just because science fifty years from now (and game mechanics) say that this time it's not racial bias, just hard fact?

I'm not ragging on you all for seeing this the way you do, but I AM surprised that no one else seems too weirded out by it. Maybe everyone else got this out of their systems ages ago.

[Crunch]

Like I said there's a huge body of scholarly discussion about fantasy racism. If you're interested in the topic I suggest reading up on it. Suffice it to say that it's a complicated enough issue that I don't think it will be settled here.

[benedictmercury]

I can handle Ghoulfodder's suggestion, which would treat starting troll mental stats as having an Availability limit. 'You had shitty nutrition, no education and severe discrimination to hurdle on the way to game start, so Logic 4 max at chargen.'

[Michael Chandra]

That kind of damage can be unrepairable though.

[benedictmercury]

*Can* be.  Sure.  *Is Always, Race-wide*?  Too gnarly.  Game or no game, new race or subspecies offshoot, it's strongly evocative of very, very recent history and set in a world...immediately following recent history.  Eugenics and race superiority science are two turns behind us by 2070.  Much of the game is about augmentation:  being _better_ than human.  Two-fifths of the races meanwhile being _worse_ than human, in the category most valued by all of Western history pretty much forever and DEFINITELY since the Enlightenment, is a really bitter resonance to have at the edges when I'm trying to get my 'more than human' fantasy on.

But cool.  I'll drop it.

[Michael Chandra]

Hey, they already made it so that Augmented Maximum is Natural Attribute + 4, so you no longer have "oh, you're a Troll? That stat can't be augmented past 6 for you". And honestly, what does that make Humans? Their Strength sucks, their Body sucks, their Charisma sucks, their Agility sucks, their Willpower sucks... The only stats where they are not inferior are the ones where nobody goes past 6 and being lucky. Also, my runner wont go past 2 Logic until he has to do for his Mental Limit, what does that make him? There is nearly no individual of any race dumber than he is.

[DeathStrobe]

All good and fair points, and I can dig why people roll with it as is. Except one thing: trolls aren't suffering from inequality because the world isn't fair, they're stuck with it because they DESERVE it.  They are 2070's scientifically justified noble savage.

2070 is 57 years from now. That long ago was 1956. Can you imagine someone in that year saying 'hey, I got this game, it's in 2013 and you can play this new race that recently developed! They aren't very smart, but MAN can they dunk like crazy! Don't even START me on how they RUN! And it's not weird or anything, because although they vote, pay taxes, own property (well, I mean) and obey laws just like us, THEY ARENT HUMAN, so if they're mostly janitors, fry cooks or pro athletes it's totally cool!'

No. You can't imagine that.

So I'm not supposed to draw analogies between trolls and the African American stock that, even eighty years ago, was alleged by the 'credible' to have been bred stronger but dimmer, just because science fifty years from now (and game mechanics) say that this time it's not racial bias, just hard fact?

I'm not ragging on you all for seeing this the way you do, but I AM surprised that no one else seems too weirded out by it. Maybe everyone else got this out of their systems ages ago.

Shadowrun is dystopian, not utopian.

Racism hasn't gone away in SR. There are still groups that hate other groups. As an example, how do you think the NAN feels about the UCAS? They don't like each other, a lot. Racism is actually human nature. People aren't born "color blind." People can see physical tells of differences and attempt to categorize people into us vs them. This is pretty much all of history. I don't think this is right, and I do like to believe that we as humans should be able to look past physical, and societal differences, but I am no fool as to believe that its something that doesn't take decades to teach people to do. And with all the crazy crap that the awakening has brought, it makes sense that people would hunker down and make their small communities and make them more insular.

There are witches, dragons, AI, infected vampires, ghouls, there are ghosts, and nature itself doesn't want you in her anymore, there are bug spirits trying to steal your body, there are a million things trying to kill you, you better believe you're going to fear that 8 foot horned demon with harden skin and make sure he can't rise up against you by make sure he stays in poverty with less education.

And say, there is a troll and he's not a big fan of being a stereotype, so he goes to school and works really hard, and gets a 5 to his logic. That's REALLY smart. You and me, we're probably a 3, but that troll? He's smarter than both of us. Heck, say he's an exceptionally smart troll and gets exceptional attribute logic, now he's a 6 logic troll; who can stand toe to toe with some of the most intelligent academics. This 6 logic troll had all of society working against him, but he defied the odds and is now one of the smartest people of the 6th world. Did it cost him more than the other races? You bet, but he did it. Its possible to defy racism.

[ZeConster]

All good and fair points, and I can dig why people roll with it as is. Except one thing: trolls aren't suffering from inequality because the world isn't fair, they're stuck with it because they DESERVE it.  They are 2070's scientifically justified noble savage.

2070 is 57 years from now. That long ago was 1956. Can you imagine someone in that year saying 'hey, I got this game, it's in 2013 and you can play this new race that recently developed! They aren't very smart, but MAN can they dunk like crazy! Don't even START me on how they RUN! And it's not weird or anything, because although they vote, pay taxes, own property (well, I mean) and obey laws just like us, THEY ARENT HUMAN, so if they're mostly janitors, fry cooks or pro athletes it's totally cool!'

No. You can't imagine that.

So I'm not supposed to draw analogies between trolls and the African American stock that, even eighty years ago, was alleged by the 'credible' to have been bred stronger but dimmer, just because science fifty years from now (and game mechanics) say that this time it's not racial bias, just hard fact?

I'm not ragging on you all for seeing this the way you do, but I AM surprised that no one else seems too weirded out by it. Maybe everyone else got this out of their systems ages ago.

You're making an elephant out of a zebra here (it's not exactly a molehill, but not an elephant either), really - yes, trolls have a lower maximum on Agility, Logic, Intuition and Charisma, but they can get above-average Agility, Logic and Intuition for no more cost than humans - in fact, they can have one of those at Superior, which is more than most humans will have.
Not to mention that you're confusing race with subspecies: trolls are the result of magic, and evolution-wise, their difference with humans is far greater than the difference between human races - better analogies would be comparing modern humans with neanderthals, or even dog breeds (although those are all of the same species) with each other.
Also, if you're only going to compare maximums with each other, I'd like to point out that a regular human with max Strength will be able to hit you as hard as a light pistol, while a regular troll with max Strength will be able to hit you almost as hard as a shotgun. Give them a katana, and the human will hit about as hard as a heavy pistol, while the troll will hit about as hard as a sniper rifle. In comparison, their intelligence capping out at university degree level isn't so bad.

[Michael Chandra]

There are dog breeds that we KNOW are smarter or dumber and stronger or weaker and so on. That actually is a really nice comparison, even if we're talking about subspecies vs breeds.

[Snake Eyes]

"Mungo nahtz broke.  Mungo doz da brokez on odderz."

Nice one CanRay

[calaen]

Lets talk racial proclivities for a moment.  Trolls do not have the same potential intellect as a human.  This might not be due to genetics or nutrition.  This might be psychological.  First of all, even a weak troll is exceptionally strong and durable when compared to an average human - the smallest of trolls can readily match high end human athletes for the purpose of strength and endurance.  This means that they may, as humans are wont to do, approach problems with the easiest solution for much of their life - especially the all important developmental years, the effects of which we have increasing evidence to suggest their long term effects on the individual.  The easiest solution of course being, use their superior physical capabilities.  The result is a troll who has been his own intellectual enemy - he has not had to try (and don't give me the 'but some will anyhow!' Trolls are rare, and people who try to take the hard road equally so.  Rare multiplied by rare means you don't find that individual in all but the tiniest percentage of the population.) so, he simply has not developed what might otherwise be an exceptional mind - and do not mistake me when I say it like that; a logic of 5, is in fact, an exceptional mind.  Further, being dumber... well, they're not dumber.  Humans simply have more room for variation - you can have a well and properly dumb human (In fact, I know plenty of those in the real world,) and they'll equal out to a well and properly dumb troll.  Their valleys are the same, it is only in their peaks that they differ.  As the reason being the ultimate weapon?  A very talented mechanic I know once told me:  There is no replacement for displacement.  A troll may not have greater potential to be an idiot, but they certainly have greater potential as soldiers, bodyguards, athletes, and, from a certain point of view, an equal potential as a scientist.  A human scientist may have a higher peak, but imagine then, if you will, the troll scientist.  Perhaps he has a logic of five where the human has a logic of six.  The human, after some hours, grows fatigued, they are tired, and they begin to dull.  The troll at this time however?  They've physical endurance the human does not - they keep functioning at full steam, and get better results in the second half, if you will excuse the turn of phrase.  By hour eight of the 12 hour corporate workday, the human is tired enough to make an ever increasing number of errors, but that troll is just getting started - and that is the power of their high body, and no, it isn't willpower - willpower would mean resistance to distractions, etc, and your brain being a part of your body does mean that using it can make you physically tired.

[benedictmercury]

Sorry--I switched terms in my elephant example, as I suspect many have the accidental habit of doing.  I'm not confused about race and subspecies or breed, mostly because these terms, whatever their different street connotations, to biologists are in fact kinda vague and interchangeable (inasmuch as they're micro-distinctions that haven't been pegged down to any great scientific degree yet).  Race is somewhat in that vague pile too, except that really it doesn't mean anything at all, other than 'phenotype distinctions within species or subspecies.'

But the terms do have different flavour out of the lab, so let's stick with those.  The 'dog breed' example you guys keep using is especially discomfiting.  Breeds are just that:  artificially accelerated sub-strains of a species selected for particular traits.  People find individual expressions of a phenotype that they like and then they breed that trait until they think they've worked back to a genotype, i.e. they've isolated the genetic element that will make the feature they liked appear consistently.  And then sure, some breeds can be reliably 'smarter,' or at least better at the few bits of human communication and command-executing that people prize.  (I'll note, though, that many beef with this idea, noting that human cooperation is only one of many, many ways to evaluate dog cunning, with some 'breeds' being un-into humans, but capable as all getout at defeating traps, etc).

The best analogy to sapiens would be families.  Ones that are dumb, or smart, or fat, etc. and over time tend to mate with their rough match, until the MacEnernies of Cork have had a rep of being belligerent wads forever, and the Nerdenplasts of Rotterdam have always been quick mathematicians.  Even allowing for all the other factors, there's probably some genes at work, we all suspect at this point, when you're just a lot like you're great-grandfather: an alcoholic asshole.

But we're not saying trolls are a bunch of magic-strong dimwits that intrabred for a thousand years in secret.  We're saying they're a new subspecies.  One that erupted out of human stock.  Yes?

I'm not arguing that it *can't* make total sense that they have different engineering and factory specs.  I'm saying it's gross that they *do,* because 'they're just a whole new kinda thing!' reads false as all hell when they all were human until like 2030.

I see attributes as aptitudes.  If trolls have inferior mental aptitudes, they are, in any society where analysis and decision-making are greater tools than bonking heads and growling when it comes to success and upward movement, exactly the kind of mule-citizen that the KKK thought blacks were a century ago. 

(And I think you guys have an inflated respect for the correlation between university training and intellect; I know plenty of Yale law guys that are very good at the society game and the weasel game but just dumb as fucking rocks overall). 

[benedictmercury]

Sorry, missed that until after I hit send, Calaen.  I like the thought.

Maybe I'm protective of the 'nature' part of the equation being a source of equality.  But at this point in the human race's history, we're running with the idea that, if protected from disfiguring circumstances, any given human mind *could* turn out to be a total game-changer.  No amount of family history, sociological predictors or anything else can really tell us a kid *can't* be the smartest dude alive.  Once we can do that, we're kinda off to the races to subdivide humanity into 'breeds' or further subspecies, aren't we?  Isn't a big part of the belief that we're all ultimately the same people about potential?  I wish it was about something more compassionate, but if you don't think a people are ultimately as smart as you, you condescend to them.  What does this mean for the troll?  The sharpest troll CEO is never, ever, ever going to earn respect as an equal from any other kind of sharpest CEO because THEY'RE RIGHT; YOU CAN ONLY EXPECT SO MUCH FROM A TROLL. 

Detached from the current story on earth, I'm all with your view.  Some aliens come down, they're bright but not quite as, but they're way durable, and bam--we can work with this.  As is?  Resonates with inequality issues that are so live and omnipresent today, I can't wall them out of my fantasy game.

[calaen]

I also want to point something out.  If you have a troll scientist you want to keep, simply because of his steady rate of error free high end calculations throughout the 12 hour corporate workday (his 5 logic makes those calculations excellent) and he is thus productive, even innovative, simply because can't isn't in his vocabulary?  You are nice to him.  You are really nice to him, because most runners, they find out their extraction target is not only not happy about leaving, but also a bloody troll, might just say 'this isn't worth the effort' and leave.