[Reaver]

Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of.  That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?

So..... you come in, read the first 5 posts... go "Crap, about trolls and metahuman rights, yuck!" THEN stay and read all the posts?!?!?

Buddy If you hate the topic on hand, DON'T READ IT! But by coming in  and displaying a "You are a bunch of Morons!" in your tone and attitude isn't going to score you much clout on the forums......And being so new, Clout is something you might want to gather.....


Just saying....

[Mara]

Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of.  That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?

And you see, here I actually thought it was a fascinating discussion. One of the things with discussions like this is
that they tend to put a spotlight on those areas of Shadowrun, whether it be mechanics or setting or both, that many
people don't usually want to deal with. Remember that, originally, Orks and Trolls pretty much WERE being handled
as metaphors for the civil rights discussions, a way to address those issues without having to deal with with the RL
politics. If you are having people put a group of Orks in poor, inner city neighborhoods, letting them be killed by police
for fun with impunity, etc, etc, well..people can't get up in arms about you doing bad things to (insert ethnic group here)
because its being done to ORKS..they aren't even human!  That is an aspect of the setting that is there that GMs can
explore if they really want to.

And, remember that part of the setting really is Meta-human rights activists, Mother of Metahumans, vs Human
Supremacistgroups, Humanis Policlub. There is a reason that people were willing to join the Universal Borhterhood,
after all...there isa reason why the one hotel that provided safe haven for Metahumans during the Night of Rage gets
specific mention of that fact in Seattle 2070, and, I am pretty sure, the original Seattle Sourcebook and New Seattle.

Now, you don't want to deal with that at your table? You don't have to. There is stuff I don't address at my table because
of my group meeting in public.  However, just because you don't want to address those issues at your table, and go for
a different style then someone else does, does not mean that is is wrong, or "absurd," that someone else WOULD. This
thread spawned out of someone uncomfortable with those issues at his table. It has, for the most part, been about
those issues and how they cross from setting thematics into the mechanics. That is absolutely not absurd.

[CanRay]

Mungo nevah gonna goze ta da Quebek 'gain.

[calaen]

Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of.  That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?

You know, when you go to a party, and you think everyone is an idiot... good chance you might be the problem.  Just sayin'

[Eldritch]

And you see, here I actually thought it was a fascinating discussion... 

...That is absolutely not absurd.

Sure, sure, I get all that, but the conversation was base d the idea that a built in stat neg for trolls was somehow racist.  That's nuts.  That's like suggesting a default stat neg for playing a chimp instead of a human is racist.  They're not the same animal, BY DESIGN.  I address these kinds of Social Issues A LOT in my games (Hey, I'm in San Francisco, it's what we do), but that angle of the conversation is cracked.   

[Magnaric]

Personally I disagree. There is almost never any discussion or question to be voiced that is simply wrong in asking it. The moment you tell someone they're an idiot simply for asking a question, even if you think the question is absurd or the answer should be obvious, is the moment you start curtailing freedom of thought, and that is a seriously troubling notion.

Now, don't get me wrong, I personally don't think the stat blocks are racist at all, because the metaraces ARE in fact different in their capabilities and strengths and weaknesses, physical and mental. However, and here's the important thing about this...what if the stat blocks WERE racist? This is why discussion might be short, it might be seemingly obvious, but it's still important.

Guy 1: "The stat blocks are racist, because it presumes trolls are dumber than other races."
Guy 2: "But how is that racist? Sure, other races might have faster mental faculties, but trolls are physically more imposing and have higher natural strength and stamina."
Guy 1: "Yeah, but the mental attributes of all the races should be the same, just the physical should change."
Guy 2: "But that's not really the way it works, is it? It says Trolls have dermal bone deposits and have developed to be tougher and more physically powerful than the other races. Therefor, it makes sense that their skulls are thicker, bones denser, and their evolution has favoured brawn over intelligence."
Guy 1: "But how is that fair for Trolls? They're relegated to being second class citizens because they can't be as smart as the other races."
Guy 2: "Well the second-class citizen disparity between them and the 'smarter' races is the product of society, not evolution. Besides, look at it from the other angle. In a civilization that prized martial prowess and brutal, warrior culture, Trolls would be kings and the other races would be the second class-citizens. No other metaspecies can ever be as tough or strong or physically dominating as Trolls. Just not in the evolutionary dice. It just so happens that the societies and civilized cultures of the world of the 2070s happen to be a bit more advanced and cosmopolitan, so they prize brute force slightly less and favour higher learning and studious education slightly more. And that's likely the angle the game designers wanted to reflect in the stat blocks."
Guy 1: "Interesting perspective. I don't necessarily agree, but it's interesting nonetheless."

Guy 1 and Guy 2 earn Achievement: Agreeing To Disagree!

Or, you could do this instead...


Guy 1: "The stat blocks are racist, because it presumes trolls are dumber than other races."
Guy 2: "That is the dumbest shit I have ever heard."
Guy 1: "..."

I'll let you pick which one you think provokes discussion and intelligent debate more.

[carolynparr]

wow, shock

[FastJack]

Mod Warning: This is an extremely flammable topic. Be careful.

[Reaver]

Wow...
Talk about a trip down memory lane!




Lets not do that again.

[Xenon]

wow, shock

This thread was 10 years old.
Please avoid thread necromancy.