NEWS

Dunkelzahn and Hestaby

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IKerensky

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« Reply #75 on: <08-20-13/1856:21> »
Yes, technomancer are so well considered in SR that any warning from them will totally be believed by the masses.

"Dont take the cure, there is nanite in it I swear!"

As another poster pointed out the Dragon could wait to activate the programming, or they could first launch a witch hunt against technomancers and AI.

Even better, dont use a virus, use a nano-virus that shutdown brain fonction resulting in quick but painfull death, pretend that the virus is a doing from Deus and that technomancers helped him develop, propage and control it. Have one or two dragon die from it, play victims, use righteous rage to launch the pitchfork mob.

Technomancers are rare and they are no Gods of the matrix. You can bet that the decking team and material the dragons would use to control the nanites would fry anyone stupid enough to show.


Wakshaani

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« Reply #76 on: <08-20-13/1901:24> »
Well, Dunk's Will *did* have some kind of injection concept in it that he wanted everyone to take, so who knows?

Of course, every pursedog used to be a Wolf, way back in the bloodline, and Dachshunds used to have real legs. Selective breeding's a Thing, and it wouldn't surprise me to see dragons possibly breeding their stock to create something more in line with their desires.



Red Canti

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« Reply #77 on: <08-20-13/2205:58> »
Yes, technomancer are so well considered in SR that any warning from them will totally be believed by the masses.

"Dont take the cure, there is nanite in it I swear!"

As another poster pointed out the Dragon could wait to activate the programming, or they could first launch a witch hunt against technomancers and AI.
For one thing, I made no mention of said Technomancer coming out as one. I didn't even try to mention to talk about warning people, as you maniacs are convinced that the Greats could tell the world 2+2=5 and be believed by the general populace.

Secondly, the type of people who ARE willing to believe said Technomancer about it, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence, are the kind of people who can distribute that sort of information really goddamned quickly. I mean. Shit. You know how these Days Fark.Com gets the news before news shows? Just think of that, except Fark.com can briefly take over the transmissions to bring in the news.


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Even better, dont use a virus, use a nano-virus that shutdown brain fonction resulting in quick but painfull death, pretend that the virus is a doing from Deus and that technomancers helped him develop, propage and control it. Have one or two dragon die from it, play victims, use righteous rage to launch the pitchfork mob.
This of course, rouses the suspicions of nobody at all. Everybody unanimously takes up the pitchforks. The AI and Matrix concerned companies make no move to stop it. Nor the Technomancers that work within the system, such as in GOD.

Because we're talking about something that hypothetically the Great Dragons would be doing, and when we do Humanity becomes inexplicably incapable of critical thinking and basic observation.


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Technomancers are rare and they are no Gods of the matrix. You can bet that the decking team and material the dragons would use to control the nanites would fry anyone stupid enough to show.
Yes. You can also bet they had some pretty damned good security in MCT and Renraku. But the word still got out.
« Last Edit: <08-21-13/1001:00> by Red Canti »
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Magnaric

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« Reply #78 on: <08-21-13/1044:17> »
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. The thing to remember here is that as gamers we are all reading the Jackpointer articles and splat books and such, so we have the collective knowledge of all the informed, enlightened, conspiracy theorists, etc. However, the average citizen of a country in the world of Shadowrun doesn't have access to that, and is largely oblivious of the actual behind-closed-doors deals and meetings of the people in power.

Oh sure, they may suspect that the powers that be are up to something, but that's hardly concrete evidence. Heck, they might even basically "know" that the megacorp CEOs and elected leaders are all greedy, selfish individuals that either buy other people or are bought themselves. But without the evidence shoved in their faces, the greater majority of people simply won't do anything about it. They'll bitch and gripe about the terrible things going on in the world, the trids they see and the articles they read depicting terrible events, and then they'll realize their coffee break is over and they'll happily put it out of their minds and wander back to their cubicles and go back to work, all the while happy that they live in such a developed, first-rate country where they have a job and college fund and relative peace and security.

And on that note, the other thing you have to remember is that almost ALL citizens of the world(not talking about the SINless, but even then they're far from universally aware) are spoon-fed propaganda and heavily-filtered and censored news from whatever federal or corporate government they happen to belong to. Look at Horizon. They are MASTERS of social engineering, and only very recently did their system of making faithful employees 100% loyal start to show any cracks. The great dragons are on par, if not well beyond the level of corporate CEOs(and in Lofwyr's case, he IS one) as far as far-reaching schemes and plans and machinations and webs of intrigue go. So if a megacorp can hide the truth from people, it shouldn't be very hard for a Great Dragon to do so, at least from the majority.

So yes, some people will always be aware of, suspect, theorize, and even work against the plans of the powers that be, but they are in the minority, and they are almost always required to do so in secret, covert ways, because people in power like to keep that power, and the easiest way to do that is to make the guy calling you out look like a raving lunatic. The media and political parties today already do that very effectively. SO without direct, in-your-face, they're-trying-to-kill-us evidence, most regular people won't do much. It's just easier and less trouble to keep your head down and ignore the little cracks in the facade around you, especially when you like the facade.

Oh, and as a last note, I really hope you weren't referring to your fellow posters/forum-users/debaters as "defeatists, cowards and bootlickers". Not exactly a spectacular way to try and win people over to your way of thinking.
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Checkmate

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« Reply #79 on: <09-20-13/0309:35> »
While I would be inclined to agree that the majority of the Sixth World is depressingly gullible/ follow the carrot esque, there are portions that are not at all that way. The Shadows and the The Corps are very aware of what is going on. Other powerful people like Laughing Man and Ehran also have an interest in humanity winning out over the dragons.

However, the concept of the dragons distributing a nanovirus capable of brainwashing humans is ridiculous. That would require significantly advanced coding and technology. I suppose Celedyr or Lofwyr might be able to accomplish this via their corps but that seems unlikely. The concept of a virus like that being distributed on a mass scale is utter insanity. I don't know how many of you have read the nanotech chapter of Augmentation, but that drek ain't cheap. Distributing it to several thousand metahumans(let alone millions or billions) simply wouldn't be economically possible. However if it were distributed to the right people...

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Mirikon

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« Reply #80 on: <09-20-13/1438:57> »
Well, Checkmate, for the sake of argument, I'll point out that Celedyr and Lofwyr could likely code the nanovirus by themselves. After all, each of them is more intelligent than three or four geniuses put together. And Celedyr has spent the better part of the Sixth World diving the Matrix for fun and profit. If anyone could code a nanovirus, it would be him. As for expense, you're talking about beings that keep solid blocks of orichalcum in their sock drawer, own megacorps outright, and otherwise have hoards that could dwarf the wealth of small countries with ease. As for distribution, that's the easy part. Especially if you're going for the long game. You don't have to distribute it globally in a hurry. Just let it trickle out, and spread 'naturally'. Dragons think in the long term. A plan spanning fifty years is certainly something they'd pursue, especially if the reward was great enough.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #81 on: <09-20-13/1449:55> »
The two Redmond Dragons are worth what, at least 250 billion combined? And that's just the small names.
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Checkmate

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« Reply #82 on: <09-20-13/1502:01> »
I'll defer to you on the coding bit. I'm not tremendously famailiar with Celedyr so I'm not justified to speak on that. As to the cost of the nanites I'll pull in a little math. Assuming those nanites cost about the average of what nanites cost(which seems unlikely)  ~¥2700 x rating. Assuming an average rating of 3(again seems unlikely but for arguments sake) that means the nanites to infect a single person would cost ~ ¥8,100. Now, that means the cost to infect 1,000,000 metahumans is  ¥8,100,000,000 or just over 8 billion nuyen. I'm assuming SR has a population in the high single or low double digit billions, but if we use earth's present population ~7 billion as the example infecting all of them would cost 56,700,000,000,000,000 or 56.7 Quintillion nuyen to infect the entire population of present day earth (Which I'm assuming is much smaller than SR's population). I'm not aware of SR's GDP but that is a ludicrous amount of money. Moving right past the part where it's unlikely all of the GD's combined have that much wealth even infecting the million metahumans (at 8 billion credits) is likely to raise red flags(as in Hey...why is neonet suddenly funneling Billions into a nanite research program that seems to be going nowhere...) and if you're looking at the bigger number the actual price would be significantly higher(and most likely so would the 8 Billion nuyen number) as the laws of supply and demand on the material needed to make nanites take effect. Not only that there may quite simply not be enough materials to produce that many nanites. And that's just the cost of the nanovirus itself let alone the money needed to distribute it(However that may be performed.)

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« Last Edit: <09-20-13/1511:26> by Checkmate »

Mirikon

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« Reply #83 on: <09-20-13/1515:37> »
Yes, but you've got a few points wrong. Namely, you forgot to ask whether the nanites are capable of making copies of themselves given appropriate materials. This is essential if you're trying to go for a viral propagation. Allow the nanites to build more of themselves out of, say, dead skin cells, slip it in with a 'beauty treatment', and then anyone who touches the 'infectee' becomes infected, and so on. But I agree that nanites aren't the way the dragons would likely go, or rather, they wouldn't use that method alone. Combined with other methods, however...
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Checkmate

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« Reply #84 on: <09-20-13/1611:53> »
I didnt get those points wrong I just have enough of a personal obsession with nanites to know that's not possible. Sadly the materials in a human body are not sufficient to allow self replicating nanites without supplements. Then again we're talking about whether or not dragons are using nanites to infect metahumanity so what do I know. My short version is: No, I don't think it's the dragons doing this (Or if it is it's not their goal to spawn some sort of world spanning pandemic).

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Mirikon

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« Reply #85 on: <09-20-13/1630:13> »
I didnt get those points wrong I just have enough of a personal obsession with nanites to know that's not possible. Sadly the materials in a human body are not sufficient to allow self replicating nanites without supplements. Then again we're talking about whether or not dragons are using nanites to infect metahumanity so what do I know. My short version is: No, I don't think it's the dragons doing this (Or if it is it's not their goal to spawn some sort of world spanning pandemic).

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Yes. Supplements. And can you tell me what exactly is in all those soyburgers and other mass-produced concoctions?
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Checkmate

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« Reply #86 on: <09-20-13/1632:08> »
For ¥3? Soy.

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Mirikon

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« Reply #87 on: <09-20-13/1643:23> »
You're still not seeing it, Checkmate. Those soy-products all have a taste, yeah? All have flavorings, right? Can you tell me what the flavorings are made of? Or if the 'soy' doesn't have a little something extra to 'enrich' it at the plant? Or perhaps a bit of 'filler' to keep the costs down? See where I'm going with this? Introduce the 'supplements' in small amounts through the food supply. Everyone knows the stuffers aren't great for you, but they beat an empty belly, so no one cares. There's already RFIDs in the packaging (and often in the food itself). RFIDs that could also be broken down as raw materials... All you would need to do is get the necessary materials in the design process, and then the corporations will take care of producing and distributing them for you. And how many shadowruns involve 'enhancing' plans on a corporate server?

If you're looking at things in a linear fashion, it would seem to be impossible. But the plans of dragons aren't limited to Euclidean shapes.
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SpyroD

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« Reply #88 on: <09-20-13/1706:06> »
Yeah but why? Selling an antidote? If that is going to happens will be an open war and someone (like Atzlan) will take the heed of it, not the best thing to do. Or even if that don't happens, Dragons (expecially Celedyr) know better in how many way they could be sidescrewed with applying a nanovirus around, and that without calling the Sybil names (or the one that hit Sirrug)

Checkmate

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« Reply #89 on: <09-20-13/1733:58> »
I see the point you're trying to make, but there are better ways of going about it. The method you're suggesting would be stupidly expensive, and frankly is a bit ridiculous. I mean first their injecting everyone with nanites now they're slipping nanosupplements into our food... Sorry bro you passed the point of reason suspicion a while back.

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