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[SR5] How to defend against grenades

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #45 on: <08-08-13/0557:58> »
I know it's not in the rules right now, but honestly even if you decide not to follow the likely-intended "you can use a Simple Action for executing a Free Action, but not carry unused Simple Actions outside your Action Phase for interrupt actions", I assumed anyone would keep in mind the Simple Action Xenon mentioned.

Also: Does anyone know how Grenade Launchers priming grenades works with Wireless grenades? Are they assumed to have their wireless on but cannot explode before they get fired to 5+ meter distance, or do we assume the arming process also turns on their wireless? And could you then explode the entire burst with the same Free Action, or would 3 of the players all have to use their Free Action for 'their' grenade for a simultaneous explosion?



Xenon: Keep in mind that the defense roll is not explicitly written and has been implied as not allowed. That -2 could be either a previous version that was to be taken out, or the result of miscommunications and missing rule segments. So basically, just like with Multiple Attacks, right now we need a clear ruling on what's intended.

If we're functioning under no defense roll to area-aimed grenades such as wireless grenades, there's rather decent chances a highly-competent runner gets instagibbed because his 20~30 dodge dice are worthless and he doesn't get any way of defending against a short burst of 'em. I like grenades being dangerous and deadly, I don't like no-defense-possible kills.
If we're functioning under dodging possible and reserving additional defensive actions possible, then it becomes much more interesting. :) Dangerous, Deadly but Doable.
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Xenon

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« Reply #46 on: <08-08-13/0620:56> »
Xenon: Keep in mind that the defense roll is not explicitly written and has been implied as not allowed.
Lol, what?

Show me where it say you don't get a regular defense roll please.
There even is a defense roll on the magic aoe example.

Attacker roll for throwing. If he get more than 3 hits, then no scatter, if less then scatter.
Defender roll for defense with -2 due to aoe.

Count the net hits the attacker get.
If it is a spell aoe then damage in increased by net hits.
If it is a grenade then damage is not increased by net hits.

Defenders always avoid taking damage on a tie or if he get more hits (this goes for all attacks in SR5)
- Only exception being "grazing hits" where a touch is enough (shock gloves)

If attacker got more hits than defender then defender might take damage.
Calculate modified armor value. Add Body. Roll to resist damage.


Where did you read that explosives should act any different?
The only specific rule for explosives is that they might scatter if you get less than 3 hits (not net hits).

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #47 on: <08-08-13/0629:40> »
The fact grenades talk about a Threshold test rather than an Opposed Test and I am not aware of any rules stating "here's how you dodge explosions". An example that could easily be part of archaic rules without explicit rules supporting it isn't enough. Not to mention that there are grenades that DO use an opposed test: Motion Sensors use an Attack roll rather than a Threshold Test.

If you honestly believe the rules clearly state that explosions allow a dodge test, please tell me exactly where the rules for that are. I haven't found them yet.
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Xenon

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« Reply #48 on: <08-08-13/0635:52> »
Here you have an example on how you avoid an explosion (magic aoe in this example, but they use the same rules)
Quote
Example p.283
...The second ganger has caught up with the first, and Rikki must step up his game. Rikki switches to Blast at Force 7. A risky maneuver for, but he wants to end things quickly so he can curl up and hide. He rolls a miraculous 5 hits. This is an Indirect Combat spell, so its damage will be equal to Force 7 + Rikki’s net hits. Ganger 1 is a little out of it and only gets 2 hits. The second ganger is quicker with 4 hits. The three net hits make the total damage hitting the first ganger 10, while the second must attempt to absorb 8 points of damage. Both are wearing armor jackets (12), but with such a high Force, the AP of the spell reduces the jacket’s protection to 5. Both gangers have Body 5, so they each roll 10 dice to resist damage. Ganger 1 rolls 3 hits and takes a total of 7 boxes of Stun damage. Combined with the Mana Bolt, he is knocked out. Ganger 2 rolls better with 5 hits and only takes 3 boxes of stun. Ganger 2 figures it’s not worth taking on Rikki on his own and runs off to get help. Rikki hurts more from casting that spell than from being punched by the gangers, as his nose is bleeding from taking 4 boxes of Stun damage from the drain.

Blast is an AoE spell
5 hits mean no scatter since this is more or equal to 3 hits (see special rule about scatter at p.181/182)
This is the same as grenades.

Ganger 1 get 2 hits (with -2 dice for being AoE): 5 hits - 2 hits = 3 net hits = ganger 1 might take damage
Ganger 1 need to resist DV7+3=DV10 (a grenade would not get more damage on net hits though)
Armor 12 - AP of 7 = modified armor value of 5 and body 5 = 10 dice
DV10 resisted by 10 dice, 3 hits = 7 boxes of damage

Ganger 2 get 4 hits (with -2 dice for being AoE): 5 hits - 4 hits = 1 net hit = ganger 2 might take damage
Ganger 2 need to resist DV7+1=DV8
Armor 12 - AP of 7 = modified armor value of 5 and body 5 = 10 dice
DV8 resisted by 10 dice, 5 hits = 3 boxes of damage



The only difference with a grenade aoe and a blast aoe is that the grenade does not cause drain, might have a higher base damage value, get reduced damage value the further you are from point of impact and does not deal more damage with more net hits.

Grenades use the same rules as a ranged attack, except that it might scatter.... (p.181 "Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing
weapons. Some special rules also apply.")

1) Grenades use the SAME rules as ranged combat.
2) There might be additional EXTRA rules.

For grenades the EXTRA rules are that you ALSO need at least 3 hits (not net hits) or your grenade will scatter.
This EXTRA rule does not in any way shape or form invalidate all the normal ranged combat rules.

And on p.189/190 you have rules how to defend against Ranged combat. There is even a special defense modifier to avoid aoe attacks where they even explicit list spells and grenades among the examples this apply to. There are multiple modifiers that might apply when defending against an aoe. Defender running +2, defender has good cover +4, defender has partial cover +2, defender targeted by area-effect attack -2...


No where does it say that defenders suddenly does not get a defense roll (that would make grenades pretty op).

Attacker need at least 1 net hit to hit the target. This is a standard ranged combat rule.
Attacker ALSO need at least 3 hits (not net hits) or the grenade will scatter.
- This is an additional specific rule for aoe attacks such as aoe spells and grenades.
« Last Edit: <08-08-13/0651:53> by Xenon »

Psikerlord

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« Reply #49 on: <08-08-13/0655:34> »
xenon that blast example is wrong. they treat the aoe like a single target indirect spell. the 3 threshold and scatter are not mentioned. it is clearly a mistake. additionally, Bull has stated there is no defence roll for aoe. just 3 threshold, then soak. still an official errata on the blast example, and removal of the forgotten -2 aoe mod, or an official FAQ, would be nice.
« Last Edit: <08-08-13/0702:09> by Psikerlord »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #50 on: <08-08-13/0702:28> »
Also, the -2 isn't explicitly referenced in there, on top of no targetting a location. So we do not know if that example predates the most recent version or perhaps was written by someone not aware of the changed rules.
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Xenon

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« Reply #51 on: <08-08-13/0712:22> »
xenon that blast example is wrong.
Boggle... I see nothing wrong with it.

they treat the aoe like a single target indirect spell.
Combat spells can be either Indirect or Direct.
Blast is an Indirect spell.

...the 3 threshold and scatter are not mentioned.
With 5 hits there is no scatter.
Spells also deal full damage all the way to the edge.
Scatter was no issue in this example.

(...also, you would think that if they want to showcase Shatter they would do that closer to p.181 and not under magic)


Here is the text from Indirect spells rules.
"...Area indirect spells travel from the magician to the point of detonation and then go boom. The test is like that for grenades (p. 181):
a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6 meters. Unlike grenades, you get to add your net hits on this test to the Damage Value of the spell, but only if you beat the threshold; otherwise the spell still detonates, but the hits are used to reduce scatter by one meter per hit.."
(p.283)

it is clearly a mistake.
Again. Where is the mistake?
You think Blast should be a Direct spell....?
The description of Blast state it is Indirect.
Indirect spells state that indirect aoe spells use the same scatter rules as grenades.
« Last Edit: <08-08-13/1001:36> by Xenon »

Psikerlord

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« Reply #52 on: <08-08-13/0714:23> »
I guess we'll just have to wait for the FAQ....

Xenon

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« Reply #53 on: <08-08-13/0722:15> »
Also, the -2 isn't explicitly referenced in there, on top of no targetting a location. So we do not know if that example predates the most recent version or perhaps was written by someone not aware of the changed rules.
What changed rules?

Projectiles p.181
Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons. Some special rules also apply.

Grenades p.181
Three hits on the test means no scatter, but it is still possible to hit the target if the scatter roll is low and the thrower got some hits.


A Ranged Combat rules use the basic combat sequence from p.173
1) Declare
2) Attack
3) Defend
4) Apply Effect


Adding the specific grenade shatter rule to the normal ranged combat rules gives:
1) Declare
2) Attack + Check for Shatter
3) Defend
4) Apply Effect

I can not find any other special rule that state the grenades does not follow other normal Ranged combat rules that prevent defenders from rolling their normal defense roll. But I do find example that showcase defenders get a normal defense roll and a defense modifier that you use when defending against area of effect attacks.


edit. I noticed now that I originally used a rather hard tone against Michael Chandra. That was not my intention. My apologize
« Last Edit: <08-08-13/0958:53> by Xenon »

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #54 on: <08-08-13/2025:15> »

Quote
I can not find any other special rule that state the grenades does not follow other normal Ranged combat rules that prevent defenders from rolling their normal defense roll. But I do find example that showcase defenders get a normal defense roll and a defense modifier that you use when defending against area of effect attacks.
I believe many of us are basing this belief that there is no defense roll for grenades on a comment Bull made. His comments aren't strictly official, but in the absence of no other information or "official" ruling, it is the one many will use. Kind of like many GMs will use the 5 point Mystic Adept rule Bull put in place for missions.

ZeConster

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« Reply #55 on: <08-08-13/2047:32> »
Aaron also stated in the FAQ topic that there is no dodging against AoE (unless they're using motion-sensor grenades)

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #56 on: <08-08-13/2134:16> »
Aaron also stated in the FAQ topic that there is no dodging against AoE (unless they're using motion-sensor grenades)

There is no dodging how bad that rule is. :)


Aaron

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« Reply #57 on: <08-09-13/0017:06> »
There's other stuff you can do, depending on the trigger mode of the grenade. If it's timed, you can run like hell, duck behind cover, try to throw it back, or convince a teammate to dive on it. If its wireless, you can have your hacker get to the grenade first and hack it.

If it's motion sensor, you can dodge it.

SoulGambit

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« Reply #58 on: <08-09-13/0345:53> »
Grenades are why every serious combatant needs two jammers--one directional, one AoE. Without the Wireless bonus they aren't too bad.

Xenon

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« Reply #59 on: <08-09-13/0415:14> »
...If its wireless, you can have your hacker get to the grenade first and hack it...
When...?

Action phase 1
Take Cover Simple Action (or fire a 6 bullet FA on someone or reckless cast invisibility or whatever...)
Ready Weapon Simple Action to bring out the grenade which obviously have wireless OFF

Action phase 2
Change Device Mode Simple Action to manually turn on wireless on grenade
Throw Weapon Simple Action to throw the grenade.
Change Linked Device Mode Free Action to detonate the grenade.

Only need 3 hits (not net hits) to land it w/in 1m even if target is aware of the grenade, have 20 defense dice and is willing to burn edge. It will deal a little more than Sniper Rifle damage, potentially much more since the damage also rebound on the floor, ceiling, north-, east-, west- and/or south-wall. gg

edit: changed order of simple actions in action phase 1
« Last Edit: <08-09-13/0744:28> by Xenon »

 

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