Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Carmody on <07-22-13/0739:20>
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Hi all,
I saw in many discussion topics that there is no defense roll against grenades or indirect area of effect combat spells.
However, this is not how I read the rules. I would like to know the understanding of other people, and ideally a ruling from one of the authors ;)
According to the grenades section p. 181, there are 3 types of detonation device:
1/ built-in timer: in that case I understand that there is no defense roll, however the grenade will stay in place for some time before exploding, and most characters may be able to move.
2/ motion sensor: see below the exact explanation from SR5 (emphasis mine)
Once armed (about a second after the sensor is activated) the grenade explodes after any sudden stop or change in direction, meaning hitting the wall, floor, or target. This method uses the standard Ranged Attack rules but adds an extra step if it misses the target (no net hits on the attack roll).
Given that this method uses the standard Ranged Attack rules, and given that those rules include a defense test (using Reaction + Intuition), I assume it is possible to defend against grenades.
My understanding is that for area-of-effect indirect combat spells, the same applies.
Furthermore, in the Defending in combat section (p. 188), there is a specific modifier for grenades & AOE indirect spells (once again, emphasis is mine):
Targeted by an Area-Effect Attack
Dodging explosions is not as easy as it seems in the movies. Apply a –2 modifier when trying to defend against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles with a blast or area effect.
Why would this modifier even exist if it was never to be used?
3/ Wireless link: this one is more tricky. I do not really know how to manage it.
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3/ Hacking?
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Not an option as far as I know. If they have the grenade ready in their hand, all they have to do is arm it with a Simple, then throw it with a Simple and make it boom with a Free. Meanwhile, people claimed the Grenade Launcher auto-primes the wireless grenades so they cannot be hacked before being fired.
And the non-dodge debate comes from Bull explicitly stating that aiming at a location cannot be dodged by people, no matter what.
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Thank you for your answer Michael
And the non-dodge debate comes from Bull explicitly stating that aiming at a location cannot be dodged by people, no matter what.
So it is assumed that the "target" character knows that the grenade is not launched at him but at the tiny rock between his feet and therefore decide not to move? :o
Do you have a link to this discussion?
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Yeah I consider that answer balooney myself, since even the SR4 FAQ says that aiming at a location is not aiming at a person, so the people still get their dodge test. He also claimed 3+ grenades does not do stacking damage anymore, but that apparently wasn't that supported by the rules.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11290.msg208685#msg208685
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#3 is exactly why I dislike the grenade rules so much - unless you're spread out properly, combat is all but decided by the first person with a grenade launcher to get their turn, but if the players ever use grenade launchers of their own, it's apparently the GM's duty to start giving all the enemies grenade launchers.
What's even more silly is that the Missile Parry Adept power specifically lists Grenades as things you could intercept (which theoretically puts you a "but I can throw it away - not at an enemy, just away - as an Interrupt action, can't I? *puppy-dog eyes at GM* away from being able to evade #3), except it states you get a bonus to your defense roll and catch the projectile if you get net hits, and there's no defense roll against grenades.
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I saw in many discussion topics that there is no defense roll against grenades or indirect area of effect combat spells.
The example on page 283 clearly states that the enemies get hits to reduce wombat net hits, but annoyingly doesn't mention at all what they throwed to get those hits >:(
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Thanks Michael for the link, I went to read Bull's argument, and they do make sense: it is not really possible to dodge a 10 meters area of effect grenade.
If I push the analysis on step further, for the second option (motion sensor):
- a character is able to react to a bullet being fired at her, there is no reason she is not able to react to a slower grenade
- a character cannot do a 10 meters jump to fully evade a grenade!
- the ability of the attacker to throw the grenade at the exact intended position does not depend on the ability of the defending character to dodge
The way I would use the rules, taking the previous 3 points into account and with a lot of personnal interpretation is:
- the attacker does a simple Agility + throw grenade (3) test. The exact landing point of the grenade (with or without scatter depending on the number of success) is found out.
- based on the landing point (i.e. explosion point) of the grenade, the base damage of each character in the area of effect is computed.
- the characters that are aware of the grenade can try to defend (taking cover, covering themselves, the gamemaster can be allowed to forbid a character to defend if there is no way he can protect himself). The defense test is Reaction + intuition, each hit reduces the damages by 1.
What do you think about that?
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it is not really possible to dodge a 10 meters area of effect grenade.
Actually if you haven't moved, it should be easy, they did after all turn combat movement into teleportation.
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If it don't detonate before it is your action phase...
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If it don't detonate before it is your action phase...
Moving doesn't actually take anykind of action what so ever ;)
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I thought you could only move during your action phase?
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I thought you could only move during your action phase?
Propaply, but thats beside the point.
The point was that being able to dodge 10m radius explosions is quite in line with how the new movement rules work.
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I thought you could only move during your action phase?
This.
And if you want to run you also need to take a free action (also during your action phase).
No problem to run out of the blast area unless thrower can detonate it before you get to act. Movement is not an interrupt action.
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pg 181
Projectiles
Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing
weapons. Some special rules also apply.
pg 188 Ranged defense
A defender has two choices for defending against
ranged attacks. The defending character can perform
the standard Reaction + Intuition Test for free. The defender
can also choose to go on Full Defense (p. 191)
and decrease his Initiative Score by 10 to gain a bonus
on their Defense Test equal to their Willpower for the
whole Combat Turn.
See Active Defenses (p. 190) for example.
By rules as written, you get to defend against grenade attacks. Besides, like it makes sense that you get to "dodge" bullets for free but not grenade blasts.
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By rules as written, you only need to roll 3 hits to land a grenade in a specific location, and with a wireless link, can make it detonate before anyone else ever gets a turn.
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pg 181 Projectiles
Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing
weapons. Some special rules also apply.
pg 188 Ranged defense
A defender has two choices for defending against
ranged attacks. The defending character can perform
the standard Reaction + Intuition Test for free. The defender
can also choose to go on Full Defense (p. 191)
and decrease his Initiative Score by 10 to gain a bonus
on their Defense Test equal to their Willpower for the
whole Combat Turn.
See Active Defenses (p. 190) for example.
By rules as written, you get to defend against grenade attacks. Besides, like it makes sense that you get to "dodge" bullets for free but not grenade blasts.
I'm with you on this
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Page 189 Shadowrun 5th Edition
Defense Modifier Table: Targeted by area-effect attack –2
This defense modifier makes it should like you can use defense against an area effect attack.
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Wireless Link: This is the safest way to throw a grenade in some aspects, but it also comes with some risk and effort. The thrower (or anyone else who has a mark on the grenade) can detonate it by a wireless link. This requires the attacker to have a direct neural interface to the linked device and use the Change Wireless Device Mode Free Action. This method also reduces scatter. Without a DNI the attacker must use the Change Linked Device Mode Simple Action in their next or any of their subsequent Action Phases to detonate the grenade and scatter is not reduced.
The thing that bothers me the most about the Wireless Link mode is the line that says it reduces scatter, but doesn't specify how much it reduces it. And if it really is a detonate instantly thing, like people in here think, why is it scattering at all?
It's also worth noting that turning Wireless on or off is a free action, as is the command to detonate, so you can't do both on the same action phase. If you're using a wireless linked grenade, you have to spend at least one action phase either with it in your possession and ready to explode, or already on target and needed to be set off with your next action. Either way, enemy hackers are going to immediately latch onto that grenade rather than risk it going off in their direction, which may be the intended balancing factor from denying a defense test.
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This is the one thing I think I will house rule in my home game.
I suspect I will go with a 5 init interrupt action to roll Reaction+Intuition with each hit be 1m moved either away from the grenade, towards cover or (in the case of a really dumb heroic PC) toward the grenade to cover it.
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You always get your defense test. It's a -2 if you're targeted by area damage.
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Page 189 Shadowrun 5th Edition
Defense Modifier Table: Targeted by area-effect attack –2
This defense modifier makes it should like you can use defense against an area effect attack.
Awsome find. I put it in the rules clarifications.
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You always get your defense test. It's a -2 if you're targeted by area damage.
But what are you rolling against?
Grenadier rolls his Throwing Weapons + Agility [Physical] (3) Success Test and gets 4 hits, so his grenade lands right on target. The Defender then rolls Intuition + Reaction -2 for being a grenade? Against what? The Throwing Weapons test has a threshold; it's not opposed.
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It appears to reduce the damage, but we honestly just don't know. This wasn't detailed appropriately anywhere in the book. From what I read, it looks like you get double damage reduction for area damage. The first one reduces the pre-soak damage, so it's possible to knock the damage down to stun even.
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It appears to reduce the damage, but we honestly just don't know. This wasn't detailed appropriately anywhere in the book. From what I read, it looks like you get double damage reduction for area damage. The first one reduces the pre-soak damage, so it's possible to knock the damage down to stun even.
That's...really bizarre and such a dramatic change to the normal rules of Defense Tests should have been spelt out in the book explicitly.
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I believe the -2 AoE defence modifier is an error and a throwback to when (it appears) they had indirect AoE spells working like single target spells, which is also reflected in the (incorrect) Blast example. Bull suggested a month ago that grenades and indirect AoE are undodgeable and revolve around the 3 hit threshold and scatter, instead.
I think (i) they will errata out that -2 AoE defence modifier completely and (ii) redo the Blast spell example in the magic section referencing the 3 hit threshold for grenade-like-spells and remove the dodge reference.
Definitely something to be clarified in the errata doc, whichever version they want to go with.
I also support the "hit the ground" suggestion another poster had abuot providing some kind of protection against AoE. doubling distance, or giving a flat +5 dice on soak, whatever, just something, anything to give a little bonus against against AoE attacks !
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I would opt to have hit the ground be allowed to be use to attempt a gymnastics test to jump or dive for cover. Take the -5 penalty and you make your jump check and end up prone at the end of the jump.
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Besides, like it makes sense that you get to "dodge" bullets for free but not grenade blasts.
You don't dodge bullets - you dodge the aim of the person behind the gun. Dodging the aim of someone throwing a grenade next to you doesn't do much.
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I share the grenade worries, having seen more than one TPK by liberal use of stun grenades.
However, I'm hesitant to house rule some kind dodge rule similar to taking cover from suppresive fire. (It sounded like a good idea at first, until I thought about it) The problem is that grenades are now linked to indirect area spells. Fireball dodges will really gimp mages. So, quite the pickle for me. And it's getting in the way of me learning other rules as I think about this damn issue. :P
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hmm just thinking about it is there any armour upgrade like fire resistance that helps against grenades? would fire (explosive-ish fire)... work?
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It's also worth noting that turning Wireless on or off is a free action, as is the command to detonate, so you can't do both on the same action phase.
Yes you can:
Free action to turn on wireless
simple action to throw
free action as simple to detonate.
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I just reread the grenade rules on p181, and I only see one instance where the target gets a defense test: Motion Sensor. This works like a regular Ranged Attack Test and would get that -2 dice penalty for being targeted by an AOE attack. Built-In Timer & Wireless are a straight Threshold (3) test. If you are still in the AOE on the throwers next Combat Turn or when it is wirelessly detonated, then you suck the damage.
The Indirect Combat AOE spells (p283) could be a little better worded I think. As written, it is just a Threshold Test (3), no chance for defense test. One could infer from the text of that -2 penalty for being targeted by an AOE attack that if someone were actually targeted by the spell, they would get a defense test with the -2 penalty just like the target of a Motion Sensor timed grenade would get.
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I much preferred the SR4 FAQ answer where aiming at a location to hit a person still was an opposed test. Because honestly, if I can move 50m in 1 CT, there's no way I'm just 'standing still'. Really think it should be an opposed test, perhaps with a +2 TH for the attacker, and you basically get out of dodge and create distance with defender hits. Same with a fireball. Or you could do the Threshold test and then give the people near it a simple dodge test to make distance. Since the explosion is an area thing, the second might be the best way to go, no silly "he hits the right spot because he targetted the floor near the slowest of you so all of you take more damage".
Then as GM you'd rule "okay, you jumped 3m away from the thing, that flushed you out of your cover."
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Besides, like it makes sense that you get to "dodge" bullets for free but not grenade blasts.
You don't dodge bullets - you dodge the aim of the person behind the gun. Dodging the aim of someone throwing a grenade next to you doesn't do much.
So that's how it works, let me tell my friends and family in the military all they have to do is dodge the aim of the Taliban and they too can survive automatics fire. The game is a gross abstraction and as such saying that it makes sense for a defense roll every time you get shot at makes sense but not for thrown grenades, in itself makes no sense. At least apply the abstraction across the board. Or if you need "logic" behind it, my reaction + intuition allows me to realize and react where he's throwing the grenade and move away from that spot.
I still stick by my assessment until errata. The text RAW allow defense tests against grenades and I'd be disappointed if they changed it, as some others have correctly surmised, removing so may lead to the first person to launch a grenade wins.
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Grenades are at least forbidden, but they could probably stand to be a higher availability, and probably should be more expensive too. I mean yeah, grenades are inherently superior to guns for killing people, but that's kind of accurate to reality, isn't it? If you really could throw a grenade and command it to explode as soon as it got where you wanted it to go, whoever you threw it at would be totally screwed.
But that doesn't mean armies would suddenly replace all their soldier's guns with grenade launchers. Grenades are not used that often, nor should they be. As the GM, I'd make grenades tossed at my players pretty rare, limited to situations where they royally pissed someone off, and they aren't standing near anything that the opposition cares about. And if my players went around with bandoleers of grenades and grenade launchers and such, they are going to very rapidly become high Notoriety, high Public Awareness mad bomber menaces to society.
It's also worth noting that turning Wireless on or off is a free action, as is the command to detonate, so you can't do both on the same action phase.
Yes you can:
Free action to turn on wireless
simple action to throw
free action as simple to detonate.
You also have to ready the grenade as a Simple Action before you can throw it. No matter what, you are going to end your turn with a grenade in your hand, possibly armed, or on target and unexploded, giving the other side time to either try to hack it, shoot you in the face, or start running.
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i am hoping the above is a saving grace to balance grenades, and while u cannot quickdraw a grenade launcher (and there is no underbarrel grenade launcher accessory or pistol sized grenade shooter currently), cant you quickdraw a grenade and throw it as one simple action. so in one phase you turn on wireless (simple, not an attacking action- or is it?), quickdraw simple and throw, finally free action detonate.
in our campaign all nades will be min avail 18, like rockets. and some kind of houserule hit the ground bonus to soak.
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So that's how it works, let me tell my friends and family in the military all they have to do is dodge the aim of the Taliban and they too can survive automatics fire.
While you're talking, ask them if they intend to stand still when someone points a gun at them. and if the shooter misses, did they "dodge bullets"?
Or if you need "logic" behind it, my reaction + intuition allows me to realize and react where he's throwing the grenade and move away from that spot.
Sure - and if you move more than 1m, the damage is reduced.
may lead to the first person to launch a grenade wins.
I agree this is a tactical hole in the rules. I'll also agree that there is an apparent contradiction in the AOE defense, unless that is intended for indirect spells only. (which would be unclear at best)
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Grenades are at least forbidden
Only the ones you just gave a multitude of reasons not to use.
Flashbangs are only restricted and heck pepper punch gas grenades are actually 100% legal you can can carry them anywhere.
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flashbangs and gas grenades don't one-shot enemies. Pepper punch is brutal, but easily countered if a player is abusing it.
"I throw a gas grenade at them and win the fight."
"Did I mention you guys are down wind? Because you have a cloud of pepper punch coming at you now."
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There's excellent reasons for both corp security and shadowrunners to not use explosive grenades on a regular basis, just as there's excellent reasons not to use all sorts of high explosives on corporate property.
However stun grenades are always a TPK in the making if a GM is liberal with them. I've never really found a solution to this, other than to show great restraint with them. You see, throwing items with a random scatter in a confined building, skill or not, always favors the GM. Simply because there are only an average of 4 runners, but there are always more mooks. Yes, some rentacaps may knock themselves out, but throw enough times and the shadowrunners will fall.
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There's excellent reasons for both corp security and shadowrunners to not use explosive grenades on a regular basis, just as there's excellent reasons not to use all sorts of high explosives on corporate property.
However stun grenades are always a TPK in the making if a GM is liberal with them. I've never really found a solution to this, other than to show great restraint with them. You see, throwing items with a random scatter in a confined building, skill or not, always favors the GM. Simply because there are only an average of 4 runners, but there are always more mooks. Yes, some rentacaps may knock themselves out, but throw enough times and the shadowrunners will fall.
Why do you need a solution other than 'don't use them very often?' Everything always favors the GM. The entire job of the GM is to know how to challenge the players just enough to make the game fun, and maybe a bit dangerous, without utterly crushing them. You don't have corp security hurling multiple grenades at your runners for the same reason you don't have 10 guys with belt fed HMGs show up, flank your group, and open up with full auto.
Balance issues are all about the player side of thing. The GM can always decide what is or isn't appropriate to use on the runners. The problems start happening when the players start using tactics that require the GM to bring the hammer down just as hard.
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Why do you need a solution other than 'don't use them very often?' Everything always favors the GM. The entire job of the GM is to know how to challenge the players just enough to make the game fun, and maybe a bit dangerous, without utterly crushing them. You don't have corp security hurling multiple grenades at your runners for the same reason you don't have 10 guys with belt fed HMGs show up, flank your group, and open up with full auto.
You have an excellent point. And I've always been able to restrain myself. I am a player at times though and have witnessed more than one TPK caused by stun grenade. I'm hoping GMs will have more restraint in the future.
I do think some groups would have an easier time with the HMG guys than the heavy use of stun grandes. But your point stands. There are plenty of ways for a GM to screw players over if that is their goal, such as cameras and explosives.
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It is an availability issue though. HMGs are different, not portable, expensive, etc. stun grenades are cheap and super effective, and they dont break stuff (do they? concussion stun dmg arent they?). All grenades should be availability 18+ imo for balance reasons, even if it doesnt really make sense lore wise. Even so the GM has to manage the game. It would just be a whole lot easier without grenades!
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It is an availability issue though. HMGs are different, not portable, expensive, etc. stun grenades are cheap and super effective, and they dont break stuff (do they? concussion stun dmg arent they?). All grenades should be availability 18+ imo for balance reasons, even if it doesnt really make sense lore wise. Even so the GM has to manage the game. It would just be a whole lot easier without grenades!
The availability doesn't matter for the Corpsec. All that really matters is the cost. Unless it's something ridiculously rare like a monowhip, Corpsec can probaly get it. What really restricts them is costs, since Corps are notoriously cheap with the outlying sites and subsidiaries newer shadowrunners typically run against. (Of course this is part of what makes stun grenades a tempting DM treat)
The odds just are against PCs who employ stun grenades a lot inside buildings. They'll eventually knock themselves out. And that's even without factoring glitches and critical glitches.
So yes, GM restraint is what is called for. If you want to have a campaign that actually lasts a while. :)
Oh, and also the Barrens battlegrounds is where we'll really see these grenade rules killing some people. So maybe get a high lifestyle and move to Bellevue. Only take runs against corporate targets. Safer all around, heheh.
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It's also worth noting that turning Wireless on or off is a free action, as is the command to detonate, so you can't do both on the same action phase. If you're using a wireless linked grenade, you have to spend at least one action phase either with it in your possession and ready to explode, or already on target and needed to be set off with your next action...
Or you fire you gun...
(using the Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto simple action p.165)
... and ready the grenade in your previous action phase.
(Ready Weapon simple action p.165)
Spend your first simple action to turn wireless ON with the manual switch
(The simple action is called Change Device Mode p.164)
Throw the grenade as another simple action.
(The Throw Weapon simple action p.166)
Detonate the grenade as a free action.
(Change Linked Device Mode free action p.163)
But since your targets get to do their normal defense roll (just with -2 because this is an AoE) i don't really see the issue here?
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I know it's not in the rules right now, but honestly even if you decide not to follow the likely-intended "you can use a Simple Action for executing a Free Action, but not carry unused Simple Actions outside your Action Phase for interrupt actions", I assumed anyone would keep in mind the Simple Action Xenon mentioned.
Also: Does anyone know how Grenade Launchers priming grenades works with Wireless grenades? Are they assumed to have their wireless on but cannot explode before they get fired to 5+ meter distance, or do we assume the arming process also turns on their wireless? And could you then explode the entire burst with the same Free Action, or would 3 of the players all have to use their Free Action for 'their' grenade for a simultaneous explosion?
Xenon: Keep in mind that the defense roll is not explicitly written and has been implied as not allowed. That -2 could be either a previous version that was to be taken out, or the result of miscommunications and missing rule segments. So basically, just like with Multiple Attacks, right now we need a clear ruling on what's intended.
If we're functioning under no defense roll to area-aimed grenades such as wireless grenades, there's rather decent chances a highly-competent runner gets instagibbed because his 20~30 dodge dice are worthless and he doesn't get any way of defending against a short burst of 'em. I like grenades being dangerous and deadly, I don't like no-defense-possible kills.
If we're functioning under dodging possible and reserving additional defensive actions possible, then it becomes much more interesting. :) Dangerous, Deadly but Doable.
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Xenon: Keep in mind that the defense roll is not explicitly written and has been implied as not allowed.
Lol, what?
Show me where it say you don't get a regular defense roll please.
There even is a defense roll on the magic aoe example.
Attacker roll for throwing. If he get more than 3 hits, then no scatter, if less then scatter.
Defender roll for defense with -2 due to aoe.
Count the net hits the attacker get.
If it is a spell aoe then damage in increased by net hits.
If it is a grenade then damage is not increased by net hits.
Defenders always avoid taking damage on a tie or if he get more hits (this goes for all attacks in SR5)
- Only exception being "grazing hits" where a touch is enough (shock gloves)
If attacker got more hits than defender then defender might take damage.
Calculate modified armor value. Add Body. Roll to resist damage.
Where did you read that explosives should act any different?
The only specific rule for explosives is that they might scatter if you get less than 3 hits (not net hits).
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The fact grenades talk about a Threshold test rather than an Opposed Test and I am not aware of any rules stating "here's how you dodge explosions". An example that could easily be part of archaic rules without explicit rules supporting it isn't enough. Not to mention that there are grenades that DO use an opposed test: Motion Sensors use an Attack roll rather than a Threshold Test.
If you honestly believe the rules clearly state that explosions allow a dodge test, please tell me exactly where the rules for that are. I haven't found them yet.
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Here you have an example on how you avoid an explosion (magic aoe in this example, but they use the same rules)
Example p.283
...The second ganger has caught up with the first, and Rikki must step up his game. Rikki switches to Blast at Force 7. A risky maneuver for, but he wants to end things quickly so he can curl up and hide. He rolls a miraculous 5 hits. This is an Indirect Combat spell, so its damage will be equal to Force 7 + Rikki’s net hits. Ganger 1 is a little out of it and only gets 2 hits. The second ganger is quicker with 4 hits. The three net hits make the total damage hitting the first ganger 10, while the second must attempt to absorb 8 points of damage. Both are wearing armor jackets (12), but with such a high Force, the AP of the spell reduces the jacket’s protection to 5. Both gangers have Body 5, so they each roll 10 dice to resist damage. Ganger 1 rolls 3 hits and takes a total of 7 boxes of Stun damage. Combined with the Mana Bolt, he is knocked out. Ganger 2 rolls better with 5 hits and only takes 3 boxes of stun. Ganger 2 figures it’s not worth taking on Rikki on his own and runs off to get help. Rikki hurts more from casting that spell than from being punched by the gangers, as his nose is bleeding from taking 4 boxes of Stun damage from the drain.
Blast is an AoE spell
5 hits mean no scatter since this is more or equal to 3 hits (see special rule about scatter at p.181/182)
This is the same as grenades.
Ganger 1 get 2 hits (with -2 dice for being AoE): 5 hits - 2 hits = 3 net hits = ganger 1 might take damage
Ganger 1 need to resist DV7+3=DV10 (a grenade would not get more damage on net hits though)
Armor 12 - AP of 7 = modified armor value of 5 and body 5 = 10 dice
DV10 resisted by 10 dice, 3 hits = 7 boxes of damage
Ganger 2 get 4 hits (with -2 dice for being AoE): 5 hits - 4 hits = 1 net hit = ganger 2 might take damage
Ganger 2 need to resist DV7+1=DV8
Armor 12 - AP of 7 = modified armor value of 5 and body 5 = 10 dice
DV8 resisted by 10 dice, 5 hits = 3 boxes of damage
The only difference with a grenade aoe and a blast aoe is that the grenade does not cause drain, might have a higher base damage value, get reduced damage value the further you are from point of impact and does not deal more damage with more net hits.
Grenades use the same rules as a ranged attack, except that it might scatter.... (p.181 "Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing
weapons. Some special rules also apply.")
1) Grenades use the SAME rules as ranged combat.
2) There might be additional EXTRA rules.
For grenades the EXTRA rules are that you ALSO need at least 3 hits (not net hits) or your grenade will scatter.
This EXTRA rule does not in any way shape or form invalidate all the normal ranged combat rules.
And on p.189/190 you have rules how to defend against Ranged combat. There is even a special defense modifier to avoid aoe attacks where they even explicit list spells and grenades among the examples this apply to. There are multiple modifiers that might apply when defending against an aoe. Defender running +2, defender has good cover +4, defender has partial cover +2, defender targeted by area-effect attack -2...
No where does it say that defenders suddenly does not get a defense roll (that would make grenades pretty op).
Attacker need at least 1 net hit to hit the target. This is a standard ranged combat rule.
Attacker ALSO need at least 3 hits (not net hits) or the grenade will scatter.
- This is an additional specific rule for aoe attacks such as aoe spells and grenades.
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xenon that blast example is wrong. they treat the aoe like a single target indirect spell. the 3 threshold and scatter are not mentioned. it is clearly a mistake. additionally, Bull has stated there is no defence roll for aoe. just 3 threshold, then soak. still an official errata on the blast example, and removal of the forgotten -2 aoe mod, or an official FAQ, would be nice.
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Also, the -2 isn't explicitly referenced in there, on top of no targetting a location. So we do not know if that example predates the most recent version or perhaps was written by someone not aware of the changed rules.
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xenon that blast example is wrong.
Boggle... I see nothing wrong with it.
they treat the aoe like a single target indirect spell.
Combat spells can be either Indirect or Direct.
Blast is an Indirect spell.
...the 3 threshold and scatter are not mentioned.
With 5 hits there is no scatter.
Spells also deal full damage all the way to the edge.
Scatter was no issue in this example.
(...also, you would think that if they want to showcase Shatter they would do that closer to p.181 and not under magic)
Here is the text from Indirect spells rules.
"...Area indirect spells travel from the magician to the point of detonation and then go boom. The test is like that for grenades (p. 181):
a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6 meters. Unlike grenades, you get to add your net hits on this test to the Damage Value of the spell, but only if you beat the threshold; otherwise the spell still detonates, but the hits are used to reduce scatter by one meter per hit.." (p.283)
it is clearly a mistake.
Again. Where is the mistake?
You think Blast should be a Direct spell....?
The description of Blast state it is Indirect.
Indirect spells state that indirect aoe spells use the same scatter rules as grenades.
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I guess we'll just have to wait for the FAQ....
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Also, the -2 isn't explicitly referenced in there, on top of no targetting a location. So we do not know if that example predates the most recent version or perhaps was written by someone not aware of the changed rules.
What changed rules?
Projectiles p.181
Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons. Some special rules also apply.
Grenades p.181
Three hits on the test means no scatter, but it is still possible to hit the target if the scatter roll is low and the thrower got some hits.
A Ranged Combat rules use the basic combat sequence from p.173
1) Declare
2) Attack
3) Defend
4) Apply Effect
Adding the specific grenade shatter rule to the normal ranged combat rules gives:
1) Declare
2) Attack + Check for Shatter
3) Defend
4) Apply Effect
I can not find any other special rule that state the grenades does not follow other normal Ranged combat rules that prevent defenders from rolling their normal defense roll. But I do find example that showcase defenders get a normal defense roll and a defense modifier that you use when defending against area of effect attacks.
edit. I noticed now that I originally used a rather hard tone against Michael Chandra. That was not my intention. My apologize
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I can not find any other special rule that state the grenades does not follow other normal Ranged combat rules that prevent defenders from rolling their normal defense roll. But I do find example that showcase defenders get a normal defense roll and a defense modifier that you use when defending against area of effect attacks.
I believe many of us are basing this belief that there is no defense roll for grenades on a comment Bull made. His comments aren't strictly official, but in the absence of no other information or "official" ruling, it is the one many will use. Kind of like many GMs will use the 5 point Mystic Adept rule Bull put in place for missions.
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Aaron also stated in the FAQ topic that there is no dodging against AoE (unless they're using motion-sensor grenades)
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Aaron also stated in the FAQ topic that there is no dodging against AoE (unless they're using motion-sensor grenades)
There is no dodging how bad that rule is. :)
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There's other stuff you can do, depending on the trigger mode of the grenade. If it's timed, you can run like hell, duck behind cover, try to throw it back, or convince a teammate to dive on it. If its wireless, you can have your hacker get to the grenade first and hack it.
If it's motion sensor, you can dodge it.
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Grenades are why every serious combatant needs two jammers--one directional, one AoE. Without the Wireless bonus they aren't too bad.
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...If its wireless, you can have your hacker get to the grenade first and hack it...
When...?
Action phase 1
Take Cover Simple Action (or fire a 6 bullet FA on someone or reckless cast invisibility or whatever...)
Ready Weapon Simple Action to bring out the grenade which obviously have wireless OFF
Action phase 2
Change Device Mode Simple Action to manually turn on wireless on grenade
Throw Weapon Simple Action to throw the grenade.
Change Linked Device Mode Free Action to detonate the grenade.
Only need 3 hits (not net hits) to land it w/in 1m even if target is aware of the grenade, have 20 defense dice and is willing to burn edge. It will deal a little more than Sniper Rifle damage, potentially much more since the damage also rebound on the floor, ceiling, north-, east-, west- and/or south-wall. gg
edit: changed order of simple actions in action phase 1
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Xenon's example is, by the way, indeed the way I'd handle grenades as attacker. Oh, I'd take Cover first, so they don't notice you bringing out a grenade.
Also, there is no guarantee every runner team and every hostile team has a hacker. And I cannot figure out if a dicepool modifier from noise actually prevents them being triggered.
Personally I miss the SR4 rule from the FAQ, where it says that if you aim at a location to target a person, they still get a dodge test. I mean I can have 25 dodge dice, be running at 170 km/h, and yet someone can turn on a grenade, fire it unopposed and make it explode without me getting any kind of defense roll, only a soak roll.
And yes, 25 dodge dice and 170 km/h running speed are perfectly legal and possible in chargen. I can even manage that with a single character. It is, however, expensive as heck.
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@xenon - yr hacker has to delay his action from phase 1, into phase 2, then declare to go at the same time as the wireless is turned on, and dataspike to break it, or if techno puppeteer to detonate it. alternatively, turn yr jammer on to prevent the detonation.
thats interesting about motion sensor grenades being treated like normal tanged attacks (p.181). thats a big difference for that kind of grenade, at least... although they still scatter i guess, so u might catch yr target anyway.
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Also, there is no guarantee every runner team and every hostile team has a hacker. And I cannot figure out if a dicepool modifier from noise actually prevents them being triggered.
I don't have the rules in front of me, but if the wireless link detonation is a wireless bonus (and I want to say it is), then you can disable that functionality with noise.
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It's not a wireless bonus, or at least it is never explicitly said to be; However, all grenades and grenade launchers have a wireless bonus ,which lets you detonate the wireless grenade without having DNI. But if you have a DNI, you don't need the wireless bonus.
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the grenade is probably a rating 2 device. if you jam the noise up to noise level 4 around the your team (or around the shooter) then his DNI (with 1 point of noise reduction from the wireless data jack) will not be able to command the grenade to detonate.
the only other way of getting noise reduction is by using a RCC and/or by using electronic warfare on the fly as a complex action (also with a RCC).
Riggers with grenade launchers are dangerous :)
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No, seriously. Jammer 4, its 800 NuYen. Carry one, bam. You're immune to Grenades. Spring for a Directional Jammer 6 too while your at it, and strap it to your shield or armor next to your Flash-Pack. Then you turn off their smartlinks and communications too.
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In response to the OP:
Throw the elf on it.
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It's not a wireless bonus, or at least it is never explicitly said to be; However, all grenades and grenade launchers have a wireless bonus ,which lets you detonate the wireless grenade without having DNI. But if you have a DNI, you don't need the wireless bonus.
A direct neural link to a grenade you just threw? The DNI rules say that the DNI lets you perceive things and send signals. It seems to imply a link into the brain, not to a device.
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I am looking at free actions to find one that i can use to wireless detonate a grenade as a free action.
IMO this one come pretty close:
Change Linked Device Mode p.163
A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to by a direct neural interface through either a wired or wireless link. This includes activating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing mode, changing a smartlinked shotgun’s choke, deactivating thermographic vision, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on. Note that it takes longer to interact with some devices, as noted in individual gear descriptions.
Also, grenade launchers have this wireless bonus (further implying that the way you normally detonate wireless grenades is with DNI):
ArmTech MGL-12 p.431 and Grenades p.435
Wireless: You can use the wireless link trigger for your grenades, even if you don’t have DNI (Direct Neural Interface sidebar, p. 222).
when throwing a grenade I would imagine that you pull a "pin" from the grenade and this pin come come with a wireless transmitter and a button... and then you press that button (or simply send a mental command through your wireless data jack) as a free action to detonate the grenade.... this is, however, just my imagination running wild trying to find a logic explanation for wireless bonuses that don't involve resonance and technomancer powers
As I understand it; DNI is used for receiving information from your devices and project it directly to your brain but also to send information to your devices - for example ejecting a the clip of your firearm, turning wireless OFF in a device.... or to wireless detonate a grenade with a wireless trigger. Most actions seem to be handled with the Change Linked Device Mode Free Action.
Change Device Mode Simple Action seem to be used when you control devices through an Augmented Reality ARO or with a manual (physical) switch -or user interface control- located directly on the device.
edit:
...and the Wireless Link detonation trigger have this rule text:
Wireless Link p.181
Wireless Link: This is the safest way to throw a grenade in some aspects, but it also comes with some risk and effort. The thrower (or anyone else who has a mark on the grenade) can detonate it by a wireless link. This requires the attacker to have a direct neural interface to the linked device and use the Change Wireless Device Mode Free Action. This method also reduces scatter. Without a DNI the attacker must use the Change Linked Device Mode Simple Action in their next or any of their subsequent Action Phases to detonate the grenade and scatter is not reduced.
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I'll defer to the errata and the FAQ.
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No, seriously. Jammer 4, its 800 NuYen. Carry one, bam. You're immune to Grenades. Spring for a Directional Jammer 6 too while your at it, and strap it to your shield or armor next to your Flash-Pack. Then you turn off their smartlinks and communications too.
You like the subtle approach I see. 😄
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If we're talking about an environment where grenades are likely, then subtle went out the window some time ago.
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In previous editions I've been able to use grenades as an opening ambush or as a trap. I'm having a hard time figuring out when I can use them now.
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Try using a non-wireless grenade.
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No, seriously. Jammer 4, its 800 NuYen. Carry one, bam. You're immune to Grenades. Spring for a Directional Jammer 6 too while your at it, and strap it to your shield or armor next to your Flash-Pack. Then you turn off their smartlinks and communications too.
You like the subtle approach I see. 😄
Provide ECCM / EPM is one of the biggest reason why you normally have a rigger in the team.
...another will be (after the errata is out) to throw wireless grenades that can not be jammed or avoided.
In previous editions I've been able to use grenades as an opening ambush or as a trap. I'm having a hard time figuring out when I can use them now.
You can still use grenades to set up tripwire booby-traps.
It is an Extended Demolitions + Logic [Mental] (8, 1 Complex Action) Test (p.435)
If you have the element of surprise then a sniper rifle will hurt plenty as your target does not get to defend against the hit if he is unaware or surprised by it... but it is probably still more efficient to just get a grenade launcher and detonate 3 mini-grenades at head height with an airburst link and a semi-automatic burst. Surprised or not, your targets never get to defend against that anyway.
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Try using a non-wireless grenade.
If I'm reading the rules right only the person targeted gets to dodge so the decker standing 1 meter behind the troll gets hit for 15. The excessive damage puts them in the invisible sniper head shot gm jerkery range if I use it in a trap or ambush.
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But the grenade will only explode later, so everyone gets a chance to avoid it. The dodge test is merely to determine whether it hits or scatters.
I don't get the Airburst link statement you made somewhere, Xenon. All it says in the rules is reduced scatter.
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But the grenade will only explode later, so everyone gets a chance to avoid it. The dodge test is merely to determine whether it hits or scatters.
I don't get the Airburst link statement you made somewhere, Xenon. All it says in the rules is reduced scatter.
I'm assuming he meant using the airburst link as a hedge against not meeting the threshold test.
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I don't get the Airburst link statement you made somewhere, Xenon. All it says in the rules is reduced scatter.
* You still need to get 3 hits or it will scatter (but it will scatter less with an airburst link, 1d6 -2m at 1 hit and 1d6-4m at 2 hits. null scatter at 3 hits or more).
* The grenade will detonate when it is close to the target (even if mid-air)
* Airburst link will detonate all three grenades in the same complex action it take to fire them in a semi-automatic burst.
* If you detonate all of the grenades at the same initiative score it will count as a multiple simultaneous blast.
* According to Aaron targets does not (never) get to roll defense when you use a wireless trigger (even if not surprised), only roll to soak damage.
Airburst link p.431
This grenade/rocket launcher smartgun accessory uses a “smart” rangefinder to air-burst the explosive projectile at a point deemed to be both a safe distance from the launcher and within the closest possible proximity to the target. An airburst link reduces the scatter distance for a launched grenade by two meters per net hit instead of by one meter per hit (Determine Scatter, p. 182) when you use the wireless link trigger.
Wireless: An airburst link requires wireless functionality to function at all. Both the grenades and the launcher must have wireless mode turned on.
Multiple Simultaneous Blasts p.181
When multiple explosives detonate at once the effects are similar to those of a blast in a confined space (more chunky salsa). When two explosions occur on the same Combat Initiative Score and both blasts effect the same character add half the value of the lower DVs to the highest DV and apply it all as a single modified Damage Value for the purposes of Damage Resistance tests. For AP calculations, use the best AP and improve it by 1 for every additional explosion.
edit: I would not recommend walking around with a grenade launcher and wireless triggered grenades with wireless ON due to the risk of being hacked. And it will take quite a while to activate wireless on individual grenades one by one... So the overall usage might be limited -But when using it for an all out military assault or surprise where a hard to kill target just have to die in one combat turn? Hard to beat it really.
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Point 4 is still a question pending isn't it?
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A jammer (4--available at chargen) means that a wireless grenade can't detonate within 10m of you, which would lead to some comic situations of live grenades bouncing off the wall right about the PC's heads and clattering by their feet. Jammers aren't things you just walk around with activated, but might help.
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I do not see an explicit rule statement there that supports the claim that they explode midair in the same action. The only explicit rule statement there is that scatter is reduced.
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I do not see an explicit rule statement there that supports the claim that they explode midair...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_burst
...in the same action.
Why would they not detonate in the same action phase.
You fire all grenades in the same action phase as one complex semi-automatic burst...
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I like shock troop tactics, honestly. Have the Matrix / Mage scout the area out. Get all information humanly possible and stack the deck as much as possible and turn off their ability to call for help. If things go well? Put in an insurgent that uses stealth to complete the mission. If it fails, if stealth is not viable, or if the hacker is found out? Flip on your Jammers. Flip on your Flash Packs. Bust down the door and clear the rooms swat team style using nonlethal damage (Gel Rounds or Stick 'n' Shock depending on the level of competency, droidness, and nonconductivity of the enemy) and clearing out larger groups with Tear Gas, Smoke, and/or Flashbangs. High Explosive Grenade spam is saved for when/if they have a wireless tank for some reason. At the point of direct conflict, speed > subtlety, you're already in damage control.
If you're in a situation where you're in direct combat without Jammers and things stacked in your favor, its because someone screwed up or you were ambushed.
Now, mind you. Like any tactic this doesn't survive contact with the enemy, but it is my approach for when things cease to be subtle.
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A jammer (4--available at chargen) means that a wireless grenade can't detonate within 10m of you, which would lead to some comic situations of live grenades bouncing off the wall right about the PC's heads and clattering by their feet. Jammers aren't things you just walk around with activated, but might help.
yep, rating 4 aoe jammer with neural link, built into yr cyberarm, or dni datajack cord link, will give u a free action anti grenade barrier, provided u have a decent edge and win the ERIC initiative tie contest. i like that this is possible, it also makes ordinary delayed grenades more useful, and the jammer is counterable with RCC noise reduction. then u get into multiple jammer territory. in any event, imo, counters to grenades stop them being so outlandishly OP, which is good.
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I think the easiest solution would be the introduction of a sprinting interrupt action that can be used to react to grenades.
For a number of reasons you can't rely on getting in a turn of movement to get away from timed grenades. (Movement allowance is per Turn while Grenades are per Pass; Initiative modifiers like electric damage, Adrenaline Boost or the Shake Up Called Shot action can mess with the assumption of everyone being able to get in a pass, and a grenade that is thrown back (or thrown to a lower initiative teammate and then thrown again) is on a very short fuse.)
Wireless grenades require some rather specific preparation to defend against (but you could argue that such a cheap defense resulting in total immunity actually works too well), while I wonder whether they intentionally made motion sensor and impact grenade rules so unintuitive and vague. As long as you target a static object with them, they don't allow any defense other than soak.
It also takes into account that Distance and sturdy cover are your best friends when it comes to explosives, after all, and some environments may just force you to get cozy with a grenade (e.g. an empty, locked, windowless room). Being able to pay an initiative score cost to ensure movement solves a number of issues with all grenade types.