[Nomad Zophiel]

I'm not even sure which side I would come down on if I had to make a GM call. The main fairness/unfairness consideration in my mind is that a starting, 6 magic, character can conceivably raise an attribute from 6 to 12, provided the target's augmented max is that high (and he could get the hits), but not raise a 7 to an 8. Especially in this example, where an Adept could theoretically sustain it himself with Living Focus. Living Focus can only Sustain a spell of force<=Adept's Magic. So if you have an extremely high augmented max, it winds up being beneficial to keep it lower so your Mage can boost it and so the Adept can sustain it. Of course if you can get your Mage to blow Karma on a Sustaining Focus, that's his problem. I'd love it if an Adept with Living Focus could pass the spell off to a Sustaining Focus but that seems like stretching the rules until they snap.

Edit: Elves are a perfect example. Keep CHA at 6 and it can be boosted to 12 by a starting Mage. Buy it to 7 or 8 and it can't.

[Mäx]

I'm not even sure which side I would come down on if I had to make a GM call. The main fairness/unfairness consideration in my mind is that a starting, 6 magic, character can conceivably raise an attribute from 6 to 12, provided the target's augmented max is that high (and he could get the hits), but not raise a 7 to an 8.

Whut, a Magic 6 mage can cast spells up to force 12, so i don't get what you mean whit this.

[Nomad Zophiel]

I'm not even sure which side I would come down on if I had to make a GM call. The main fairness/unfairness consideration in my mind is that a starting, 6 magic, character can conceivably raise an attribute from 6 to 12, provided the target's augmented max is that high (and he could get the hits), but not raise a 7 to an 8.

Whut, a Magic 6 mage can cast spells up to force 12, so i don't get what you mean whit this.

Sorry, let me rephrase that. I meant Force 6.

So a starting character with Magic 3 can boost a 6 to a 12 if he can get the hits (Force 6)
or a Magic 6 character can do it and take only stun drain.

Whereas a Magic 3 character can't raise an attirbute from 7 to 8 and a Magic 6 character takes physical drain to do so. It just seems to me that Force should have some sort of influence on the maximum you can go to.

[FastJack]

Well, yeah, it does. If you cast a Force 3 spell, then the maximum number of hits you can possibly get is 3.

[Bradd]

Another thing to consider: The Drain Value is only ½F–2! If you base the Force on initial attribute value, a magician can increase an attribute from 7 to 14 with only 1 DV. Bumping troll Body from 9 to 15 is only 2 DV.

And speaking of Body, how do you figure the Force for attributes with partial augmentation, like Body with Bone Lacing? That has a +1 to +3 augmentation only for the purpose of resisting damage. It's easy to figure if you use the spell Force as the augmented maximum.

[FastJack]

Even though Bone Lacing is partial augmentation, I'd rule that you'd go by the augmented value for the spell. Theoretically, the augmentation would make it more difficult for the magic to affect the character (tech vs. magic).

[Nomad Zophiel]

@Jack - Not a force 3 spell, a Force 6 spell. I tried to use that in my original example, but Max pointed out that a mage with Magic 6 can overcast to 12. The news example was someone with Magic 3 so their absolute maximum force would be 12.

And yes, the force is based on the Audmented stat, so if someone has bone lacing, it counts.

[Mäx]

And yes, the force is based on the Audmented stat, so if someone has bone lacing, it counts.

Actually no, as bone lacing does not create an augmented attribute(the bonus from it isn't even limited by augmented maximums)
Somethink that augments your attribute for one particular think isn't an attribute augmentation, only those that augment it for all purposes are.

[Medicineman]

Suprathyroid Gland is the only 'ware (I know of) that completely raises Your CON !
everything else just adds some Bonus Dice

HokaHey
Medicineman

[voydangel]

CON?

[Medicineman]

CON?

KON (Konstitution in German)= CON  ( Constitution)
 its BOD in English 

with a German Dance
Medicineman

[Bradd]

SR4A, pps. 341 and 345:

Plastic bone lacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute for damage resistance tests .... Increase the recipient’s Body by the
bone density [augmentation] rating for damage resistance tests.

Those are attribute bonuses, and therefore subject to augmented attribute limits.

[Mäx]

SR4A, pps. 341 and 345:

Plastic bone lacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute for damage resistance tests .... Increase the recipient’s Body by the
bone density [augmentation] rating for damage resistance tests.

Those are attribute bonuses, and therefore subject to augmented attribute limits.

Nope, as they only increase it for damage resistance tests.
Not that it actually ever matters, unless you have a mage boosting you body to max.

[FastJack]

So... Let's say that a human street sammy goes into the chop-shop to get a complete overhaul. He wants to be built like a tank. He gets arms, legs, torso and skull done. Standard Cyberlimbs (Bod 3) with Rating 6 Bod enhancement (bringing him to the human max of 9).

By the argument that Bone Lacing doesn't count towards that maximum, then he could also go in for the Titanium Bone Lacing, giving him 12 dice on Damage Resistance tests? Or, in the same vein, he could get Rating 4 Bone Augmentation bioware to give him a Bod of 13 on DR?

[Medicineman]

So... Let's say that a human street sammy goes into the chop-shop to get a complete overhaul. He wants to be built like a tank. He gets arms, legs, torso and skull done. Standard Cyberlimbs (Bod 3) with Rating 6 Bod enhancement (bringing him to the human max of 9).

By the argument that Bone Lacing doesn't count towards that maximum, then he could also go in for the Titanium Bone Lacing, giving him 12 dice on Damage Resistance tests? Or, in the same vein, he could get Rating 4 Bone Augmentation bioware to give him a Bod of 13 on DR?

No ! Shurely not because you don't get any bonelacing bonus in Cyberlimbs -You can only have one or another.
Much more Interesting would by a Suprathyroid Gland in said Cyborg.
By RAW the bonusses (boni ?) DO add

and Yes,Mäx is right the Bonelacing only adds a Bonus to part of the BOD .it gives no Bonus to Toxin Resistance or Viruses,etc ,so its just a Modifier

with a Bonusdance
Medicineman