[El Diablo]

Hey!

I want to defend from a Fireball spell. What do I do?

I want to defend from a grenade. What do I do?

I ask these two 'cause I've found all types of information:

Dodging explosions is not as easy as it seems in the movies. Apply a –2 modifier when trying to defend against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles with a blast or area effect.

This is from CRB and page 190.

Also these two posts by Bull and they contradict each other by one day of difference.

Thanks in advance.

[Marcus Gideon]

Hey!

I want to defend from a Fireball spell. What do I do?

I want to defend from a grenade. What do I do?

I ask these two 'cause I've found all types of information:

Dodging explosions is not as easy as it seems in the movies. Apply a –2 modifier when trying to defend against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles with a blast or area effect.

This is from CRB and page 190.

Also these two posts by Bull and they contradict each other by one day of difference.

Thanks in advance.

Those links don't necessarily contradict each other. They're just talking about general events vs specific events.

Direct and Indirect are 2 very broad categories of spells. Then you get down to whether it's singular target, or AOE. Singular target spells can be avoided b/c it's targeting you specifically and you can attempt to evade. AOE cannot be avoided b/c you can't really move fast enough to get out of the area.

When you're talking about Fireballs and grenades, you're looking at Indirect AOE specifically. So when a Fireball or grenade lands next to you, it explodes and affects anything and everything within the radius. There is no roll to evade or avoid the damage. There is only the roll to see how badly it hurts you for having been hit.

That little blurb you quoted about modifiers to AOE defense, is a pesky little line. All I can think, is that 2 teams of writers got together and talked about AOE stuff. Then they went their separate ways and never spoke again. One team eventually decided to make AOE unavoidable. The other team never heard that change, and went about writing rules for modifiers. But as we see, in the end, there is nothing to modify and thus that line is moot.

[jim1701]

Run and Gun has actions you can use vs. AOE attacks.  Run for your Life/Dive on the grenade on pg 125 for example. 

Also the line in the CRB about the -2 penalty is a mistake according to Aaron

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg238706#msg238706

[El Diablo]

Run and Gun has actions you can use vs. AOE attacks.  Run for your Life/Dive on the grenade on pg 125 for example. 

Also the line in the CRB about the -2 penalty is a mistake according to Aaron

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg238706#msg238706

Ah! Thanks for the link. It was pretty much what I needed. Thanks again.

EDIT:

Yes we did: there's no defense test against grenades, indirect LOS (A) spells, and other "zones of damage."

Uh, there's no Defense Test for spells then. Run for your life is now very, very useful.

"The Damage Value of a successful indirect combat spell is Force + net hits, with an AP equal to –(Force)", page 283. What net hits? There is no opposed test.

[Marcus Gideon]

indirect LOS (A) spells

Indirect, as in Physical based spell that produces a physical effect (like a giant ball of flames which will catch anything flammable on fire as per usual. As opposed to Direct Mana based spells which are pure magical energies striking directly at the target's soul / aura / whatever.

LOS = Line of Sight, meaning that you can't shoot a Fireball around a blind corner. The best you can do is cast a Fireball at the intersection and hope when it explodes that the flames go around the corner.

(A) = Area of Effect, meaning that it doesn't just target an individual, it targets a location and affects everyone and everything in that location. When the Fireball spell goes off, it creates a huge rush of flames within the radius.

So...

There is no Defense Test for an Indirect, Line of Sight, Area of Effect spell like Fireball. You only get to soak the damage. It's basically a magical grenade, and will hurt anyone who happens to be close when it goes off.

There IS still a Defense Test for an Indirect, Line of Sight, non-AOE spell like Flamethrower. Which causes a jet of flame to leap out at the single person you intend on setting aflame. They get to dodge out of the way of the fiery spray, thus avoiding the damage if possible. If they don't get out of the way completely, they still get to soak the damage.

Direct spells such as Manabolt or Manaball, do not have "avoidance" Defense Tests at all. They are magically guided to hit the targets. But you do get to roll to "resist" the harmful effects. And after attempting to resist the effects, you also get to roll to soak the harmful damage that was left over.

[Herr Brackhaus]

"The Damage Value of a successful indirect combat spell is Force + net hits, with an AP equal to –(Force)", page 283. What net hits? There is no opposed test.

There's no opposed test for Area Indirect spells, but there is a success test.

Area indirect spells travel from the magician to the point of detonation and then go boom. The test is like that for grenades (p. 181): a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6 meters. Unlike grenades, you get to add your net hits on this test to the Damage Value of the spell, but only if you beat the threshold; otherwise the spell still detonates, but the hits are used to reduce scatter by one meter per hit.

Net hits in this case are any hits beyond the 3 needed to land your spell on target.

[El Diablo]

Note: Deleted previous post of mine to avoid double post.

"The Damage Value of a successful indirect combat spell is Force + net hits, with an AP equal to –(Force)", page 283. What net hits? There is no opposed test.

There's no opposed test for Area Indirect spells, but there is a success test.

Area indirect spells travel from the magician to the point of detonation and then go boom. The test is like that for grenades (p. 181): a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6 meters. Unlike grenades, you get to add your net hits on this test to the Damage Value of the spell, but only if you beat the threshold; otherwise the spell still detonates, but the hits are used to reduce scatter by one meter per hit.

Net hits in this case are any hits beyond the 3 needed to land your spell on target.

I see. Thanks a bunch.

Then now:

So - did we ever get any clarification from Gen Con... Did players get to take a defense test [of some sort] against grenades and indirect LOS (A) spells?

Yes we did: there's no defense test against grenades, indirect LOS (A) spells, and other "zones of damage." The defense against these attacks is to take precautions against them. This is really really really true, and been confirmed by multiple sources inside the company. So unless there's been a meeting somewhere to which I wasn't privy, you really really honestly and truly don't get to make a defense test against grenades or indirect LOS (A) spells.

Very well. Then can we please get an explanation as to how counterspelling is meant to be used against area spells? The text goes out of its way to describe how you can give the bonus to multiple people, but counterspelling only adds to defense tests, and area spells like Fireball have no such tests.

Spell defense dice are rolled against Indirect Combat spells the same way they're rolled against other spells with no defense test: you roll them as a dice pool of their own.

So, let's assume the Mage rolls against incoming Fireball. What happens in each scenario?

A) Mage  rolls Counterspell. He rolls 5 and enemy rolls 3 on Spellcasting. Mage wins with 2 net hits. Fireball dissapears, Mage is immune to Fireball or Mage's Counterspelling causes the Fireball to scatter?
B) Mage rolls Counterspell. He rolls 4 and enemy rolls 5 on Spellcasting. Mage loses with 1 net hit. Mage's hits are wasted? Does he reduces the "net htis of the grenade test" with his own hits? You know, the "The test is like that for grenades (p. 181): a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6 meters." on page 283, Core.
C) Mage rolls Counterspell. He rolls 3 and enemy rolls 3 on Spellcasting. What happens with the tie?

[Marcus Gideon]

So - did we ever get any clarification from Gen Con... Did players get to take a defense test [of some sort] against grenades and indirect LOS (A) spells?

Yes we did: there's no defense test against grenades, indirect LOS (A) spells, and other "zones of damage." The defense against these attacks is to take precautions against them. This is really really really true, and been confirmed by multiple sources inside the company. So unless there's been a meeting somewhere to which I wasn't privy, you really really honestly and truly don't get to make a defense test against grenades or indirect LOS (A) spells.

Very well. Then can we please get an explanation as to how counterspelling is meant to be used against area spells? The text goes out of its way to describe how you can give the bonus to multiple people, but counterspelling only adds to defense tests, and area spells like Fireball have no such tests.

Spell defense dice are rolled against Indirect Combat spells the same way they're rolled against other spells with no defense test: you roll them as a dice pool of their own.

So, let's assume the Mage rolls against incoming Fireball. What happens in each scenario?

A) Mage  rolls Counterspell. He rolls 5 and enemy rolls 3 on Spellcasting. Mage wins with 2 net hits. Fireball dissapears, Mage is immune to Fireball or Mage's Counterspelling causes the Fireball to scatter?
B) Mage rolls Counterspell. He rolls 4 and enemy rolls 5 on Spellcasting. Mage loses with 1 net hit. Mage's hits are wasted? Does he reduces the "net htis of the grenade test" with his own hits? You know, the "The test is like that for grenades (p. 181): a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6 meters." on page 283, Core.
C) Mage rolls Counterspell. He rolls 3 and enemy rolls 3 on Spellcasting. What happens with the tie?

I'm kinda torn by this one. Which is why I kinda hate this Aaron guy, sometimes his answers make no sense whatsoever.

We've already decided that the line in the book about "-2 to dodging explosions" is just supposed to be ignored, b/c there is no defense test to modify. Well by that logic, Counterspell shouldn't apply to a Fireball at all, b/c it's just another modifier to a non-existent defense test.

* If you do allow it to apply, then logically it makes you into Fireball repellant. So long as you can reduce the caster's net hits under the Threshold 3, the Fireball will scatter. According to Aaron, since there is no defense test, you're allowed to roll just your Counterspell skill. Which means you do not get to roll Reaction + Intuition + Counterspell... you only get to roll your Counterspell rating.

A) Assuming that for whatever reason, they rolled Spellcasting + Magic [Force] and only got 3 hits... while you only rolled Counterspell and got 5 hits (statistically meaning you've got Counterspell 15)... since they didn't get their Threshold 3, the Fireball would scatter.

B) Again, assuming you've got Counterspell 12 to mathematically score 4 hits... since the caster didn't get his Threshold 3, the Fireball will still scatter.

C) Once again, assuming you've got Counterspell 9 and they suck at rolling their full dice pool... the caster still didn't beat Threshold 3, so it scatters.

If you're allowed to use Counterspell for AOE spells, the only way it's going to land on target is if the caster overcomes your check in addition to the Threshold 3. Which really shouldn't be too difficult realistically. They're rolling Magic 6 + Spellcasting 6 + Combat spec 2 = 14 dice averaging 5 hits. You've only got Counterspell 6 averaging 2 hits, giving them just enough to meet the Threshold.

** But... the easier answer would be to say that Counterspell doesn't apply to Fireballs, for the same reason we don't worry about the -2 to defense against AOE. You can use it to avoid a Flamethrower or Lightning Bolt, but AOE is just targeting a point in space that you happen to be near.

[El Diablo]

I'm kinda torn by this one. Which is why I kinda hate this Aaron guy, sometimes his answers make no sense whatsoever.

We've already decided that the line in the book about "-2 to dodging explosions" is just supposed to be ignored, b/c there is no defense test to modify. Well by that logic, Counterspell shouldn't apply to a Fireball at all, b/c it's just another modifier to a non-existent defense test.

* If you do allow it to apply, then logically it makes you into Fireball repellant. So long as you can reduce the caster's net hits under the Threshold 3, the Fireball will scatter. According to Aaron, since there is no defense test, you're allowed to roll just your Counterspell skill. Which means you do not get to roll Reaction + Intuition + Counterspell... you only get to roll your Counterspell rating.

A) Assuming that for whatever reason, they rolled Spellcasting + Magic [Force] and only got 3 hits... while you only rolled Counterspell and got 5 hits (statistically meaning you've got Counterspell 15)... since they didn't get their Threshold 3, the Fireball would scatter.

B) Again, assuming you've got Counterspell 12 to mathematically score 4 hits... since the caster didn't get his Threshold 3, the Fireball will still scatter.

C) Once again, assuming you've got Counterspell 9 and they suck at rolling their full dice pool... the caster still didn't beat Threshold 3, so it scatters.

If you're allowed to use Counterspell for AOE spells, the only way it's going to land on target is if the caster overcomes your check in addition to the Threshold 3. Which really shouldn't be too difficult realistically. They're rolling Magic 6 + Spellcasting 6 + Combat spec 2 = 14 dice averaging 5 hits. You've only got Counterspell 6 averaging 2 hits, giving them just enough to meet the Threshold.

** But... the easier answer would be to say that Counterspell doesn't apply to Fireballs, for the same reason we don't worry about the -2 to defense against AOE. You can use it to avoid a Flamethrower or Lightning Bolt, but AOE is just targeting a point in space that you happen to be near.

Or you know, good luck, Edge, Background and/or some sort of penalty. I think I will go with the "defender's hits takes away attacker's hits" you suggest. Seems the most balanced to me (maybe 'cause I don't really adore Mages in general). If someone else has a better idea, please let me know. I am all ears eyes.

[Marcus Gideon]

Keep in mind, you only get to roll the Counterspell skill itself.

Enemy caster shoots a Fireball. They roll Spellcasting 6 + Magic 6 + Combat spec 2 + Spell Focus 4 = 18 dice, Edging to re-roll 6's and ignore Limits. Statistically, they get 6 hits and reroll 3 of those for an extra hit, 7 hits total.

You on the other hand, may not have maxed your Counterspell skill right out the gate, since you probably wanted to be better at casting than avoiding casting. So your Spellcasting is 6, but your Counterspell is only 3-4. That means you only get to roll 3-4 dice to avoid the Fireball. Statistically, that's only 1 hit.

So you take the caster's check down to 6 hits, which is still more than enough to beat the Threshold 3, and even gives them +3 damage. It could have been +4 damage, but somehow your Counterspell training makes you into a magic deflector shield? And what's more, just standing in the middle of your group means you are deflecting the Fireball away from the whole group. You're like the opposite of a lightning rod.

That's why I think the better approach is to disallow Counterspell for Fireballs and such. Nowhere does it say that Counterspell gives you a magical radius of magic repellant. It's supposed to keep YOU safe from targeted effects. Or you can choose to extend that protection to a limited number of friends. But you could stand in a crowded room and cause the Fireball to reflect off entirely, protected who knows how many people at once. So for my money, I'd say it just doesn't work. The Fireball isn't targeting YOU or your friends. It's targeting a point in space, nothing more. The flames it creates aren't magical flames to be resisted, it's just fire. It's not different than teleporting a grenade (if teleportation were possible) and then letting the grenade explode.

[El Diablo]

Keep in mind, you only get to roll the Counterspell skill itself.

Enemy caster shoots a Fireball. They roll Spellcasting 6 + Magic 6 + Combat spec 2 + Spell Focus 4 = 18 dice, Edging to re-roll 6's and ignore Limits. Statistically, they get 6 hits and reroll 3 of those for an extra hit, 7 hits total.

You on the other hand, may not have maxed your Counterspell skill right out the gate, since you probably wanted to be better at casting than avoiding casting. So your Spellcasting is 6, but your Counterspell is only 3-4. That means you only get to roll 3-4 dice to avoid the Fireball. Statistically, that's only 1 hit.

So you take the caster's check down to 6 hits, which is still more than enough to beat the Threshold 3, and even gives them +3 damage. It could have been +4 damage, but somehow your Counterspell training makes you into a magic deflector shield? And what's more, just standing in the middle of your group means you are deflecting the Fireball away from the whole group. You're like the opposite of a lightning rod.

That's why I think the better approach is to disallow Counterspell for Fireballs and such. Nowhere does it say that Counterspell gives you a magical radius of magic repellant. It's supposed to keep YOU safe from targeted effects. Or you can choose to extend that protection to a limited number of friends. But you could stand in a crowded room and cause the Fireball to reflect off entirely, protected who knows how many people at once. So for my money, I'd say it just doesn't work. The Fireball isn't targeting YOU or your friends. It's targeting a point in space, nothing more. The flames it creates aren't magical flames to be resisted, it's just fire. It's not different than teleporting a grenade (if teleportation were possible) and then letting the grenade explode.

You assume too much. So many dices makes a suicidal mage go down quickly by himself, unless Reagents and tricks. But it's true, the Spellcaster has better odds than the Counterspeller.

I have no issues with a Counterspeller being a kind of magic shield. You still gotta beat the odds and the mental image of someone doing a mean look to a Fireball and causing it to scatter somehwere else, is pretty awesome.

[Marcus Gideon]

You assume too much. So many dices makes a suicidal mage go down quickly by himself, unless Reagents and tricks. But it's true, the Spellcaster has better odds than the Counterspeller.

I have no issues with a Counterspeller being a kind of magic shield. You still gotta beat the odds and the mental image of someone doing a mean look to a Fireball and causing it to scatter somewhere else, is pretty awesome.

I'm not sure what you mean, too many dice makes a suicidal mage?

And I'm sure you are happy with the idea of a magical Star Trek deflector shield that always works to your benefit and never against you... But that's not how the game was written.

Core pg 76 details the Magic Resistance quality. It does say that it could potentially make a Fireball bounce away, even though it maxes out at Rating 4 (and it's referring to Spell Resistance tests which we know don't apply to Indirect AOEs anymore). However, it's also a permanent effect that cannot be voluntarily lowered. So someone with true Magic Resistance cannot be magically Healed, and cannot participate in spells that require a voluntary subject. Also, they themselves cannot have a Magic rating.

So... for the sake of game balance, being a Mage who casts Fireballs left and right, I'm just not seeing this cheap skill (hmm, should I train Pistols or another rank in Counterspell) providing such an auspicious bonus. As I said before, it clearly works for targeted effects. But glaring menacingly at a grenade does you no good.

[Lucean]

I'm kinda torn by this one. Which is why I kinda hate this Aaron guy, sometimes his answers make no sense whatsoever.

You know what? Look at Aaron's signature:
"I like to answer questions, but my answers are not official and don't necessarily reflect the opinions of Catalyst Game Labs or its employees. I might even be wrong."

We at least had someone step up and take their time to answer questions, even when they only had the status of a FAQ the often enough helped people to continue playing the game.
But as usual, the more questions you try to answer the higher the chance that some answer might not be the ideal solution for a given problem.

Congratulations! You have found one - and again, you're very late to the party: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19395.msg345521#msg345521

I suggest you improve your Matrix Search dice pools when you already know that the forums are a good source for answers

[Marcus Gideon]

... you already know that the forums are a good source for answers

FTFY =)

[El Diablo]

Hey, it's me again!

Street Grimoire, 105. Radiation Burst and Radiation Beam. Do Mentor Spirit and/or Bone Lacing/Density apply to resist Radiation damage?

Thanks.