[Daedalus]

So Street Cred has two different mechanics. While this is an eratta find I am also looking for a rules clairification as to which one is correct so I think this is the correct thread.

p. 372 states characters automatically get an amount of street cred = karma/10 (rounddown).  It goes on to state, "Street Cred is applied as a positive Limit Modifier to all Social Tests in situations where the character’s reputation would be known."

Note that this increases the *limit*.

However, the chart on p. 140 states that street cred increases the die pool.
Is the chart or the entry correct?

[Reaver]

So Street Cred has two different mechanics. While this is an eratta find I am also looking for a rules clairification as to which one is correct so I think this is the correct thread.

p. 372 states characters automatically get an amount of street cred = karma/10 (rounddown).  It goes on to state, "Street Cred is applied as a positive Limit Modifier to all Social Tests in situations where the character’s reputation would be known."

Note that this increases the *limit*.

However, the chart on p. 140 states that street cred increases the die pool.
Is the chart or the entry correct?

Just a guess, I would go with the increase to the Limit....

The other one is worded almost exactly like the 4e write up which leads me to think it wasn't edited properly for the Limits they put in place.

[Bach_The_Fox]

In all previous editions, you could explicitly attack active Foci in Astral space.

Now the only things that interact with them is Disenchanting and Mana Barriers.

Is this intentional or errata worthy?

[Reaver]

In all previous editions, you could explicitly attack active Foci in Astral space.

Now the only things that interact with them is Disenchanting and Mana Barriers.

Is this intentional or errata worthy?

The trick you are talking about was called "Grounding" and it has been removed since 4e. there is a write up as to why in the 4th edition SR 2050 book.

[Bach_The_Fox]

In all previous editions, you could explicitly attack active Foci in Astral space.

Now the only things that interact with them is Disenchanting and Mana Barriers.

Is this intentional or errata worthy?

The trick you are talking about was called "Grounding" and it has been removed since 4e. there is a write up as to why in the 4th edition SR 2050 book.

Nah, not grounding (which I'm happy was removed, however amusing it was to ground a Fireball through a Sustaining Focus).

Active Foci are astral constructs, like wards, barriers, etc, and could be attacked by Astral entities or spells in the same way.

[Reaver]

In all previous editions, you could explicitly attack active Foci in Astral space.

Now the only things that interact with them is Disenchanting and Mana Barriers.

Is this intentional or errata worthy?

The trick you are talking about was called "Grounding" and it has been removed since 4e. there is a write up as to why in the 4th edition SR 2050 book.

Nah, not grounding (which I'm happy was removed, however amusing it was to ground a Fireball through a Sustaining Focus).

Active Foci are astral constructs, like wards, barriers, etc, and could be attacked by Astral entities or spells in the same way.

Not ever to my knowledge.... the only way was "grounding" which allowed an astral entity (spirit or Mage) to attack a physical active foci, or materialized spirit for the purpose of sending a spell to the physical plane.

you could however target an active foci with a meta magic technique that rendered the foci inactive for a set period of time from the astral.... But that has been removed too since 4e. could you provide the page number for 3e and 4e so I can look and see what you are talking about?

[Bach_The_Fox]

SR4A pg 183 (resistance for Foci vs. Spells); pg 193 (Astral Combat "Astral objects...only affected by physical damage")

SR3 and SR2? Yeesh. No PDFs for those, heh.

EDIT: No, scratch that, found it. "Astral objects are non-intelligent astral forms like barriers and foci, which only fight in astral combat if they are attacked." pg 176 SR3; is much more explicit with how handle attacking them.


Someone else can go hunt down SR2 and SR1 .

[Reaver]

SR4A pg 183 (resistance for Foci vs. Spells); pg 193 (Astral Combat "Astral objects...only affected by physical damage")

SR3 and SR2? Yeesh. No PDFs for those, heh.

EDIT: No, scratch that, found it. "Astral objects are non-intelligent astral forms like barriers and foci, which only fight in astral combat if they are attacked." pg 176 SR3; is much more explicit with how handle attacking them.


Someone else can go hunt down SR2 and SR1 .

Sorry buddy, but I can not find anything in SR4a about attacking a foci. (used the search command, 0 hits)
pg 183 says nothing about attacking foci... and only that attacks but be on the same plane (astral to astral, physical to physical) and that attacking in astral must be done with a mana spell only (so no elemental effects)

Pg 193 talks about astral forms, astral combat, manifesting, astral tracking. but says nothing about attacking a Foci.

infact the only thing stated anywhere I could find about "attacking a foci" was when a foci is forced through an astral barrier, in which case either the barrier breaks, or the foci is disrupted and gets turned off.

could you please cut and paste the info, you have me curious now.

[Bach_The_Fox]

It's not very clear. Here, this is from the FAQ
No idea what future book it is referring to.

http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml

Can I attack an active focus in Astral Combat? If so, how much damage can it take, and what happens when its damage track is filled up?

This will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook. In the meantime, the following is an optional rule gamemasters may choose to implement in their games, based on the Disrupt [Focus] spell:

An active focus is dual-natured and can be attacked using Astral Combat much like a ward or targeted by spells like Disrupt [Focus] (p.16, Digital Grimoire) or other Mana-based spells that deal Physical damage.

From the Disrupt [Focus] spell description: On the astral plane, an active focus has Barrier and Structure ratings equal to its Force. If its Structure rating is reduced to 0, the focus is disrupted and becomes inactive; the magician bonded to the focus cannot gain dice bonuses or any other benefit from the focus until it is reactivated. A focus "heals" a number of boxes of damage equal to its Force every Combat Turn; when all the damage is repaired the owner may spend a Simple Action to reactivate the focus. Disrupting a sustaining focus will also disrupt the spell it is sustaining. Astrally projecting magicians whose foci become disrupted cannot reactivate them until their astral form rejoins their physical body.

[Michael Chandra]

So let me summarize what I think I know about SR4:
- A focus is dual-natured so active on the astral.
- This means it's visible and can be assensed from the astral.
- It can, however, not be targeted with astral spells.
- So it cannot be attacked from from the astral.
- It can be attacked in itself on the physical realm, however.

[Reaver]

It's not very clear. Here, this is from the FAQ
No idea what future book it is referring to.

http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml

Can I attack an active focus in Astral Combat? If so, how much damage can it take, and what happens when its damage track is filled up?

This will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook. In the meantime, the following is an optional rule gamemasters may choose to implement in their games, based on the Disrupt [Focus] spell:

An active focus is dual-natured and can be attacked using Astral Combat much like a ward or targeted by spells like Disrupt [Focus] (p.16, Digital Grimoire) or other Mana-based spells that deal Physical damage.

From the Disrupt [Focus] spell description: On the astral plane, an active focus has Barrier and Structure ratings equal to its Force. If its Structure rating is reduced to 0, the focus is disrupted and becomes inactive; the magician bonded to the focus cannot gain dice bonuses or any other benefit from the focus until it is reactivated. A focus "heals" a number of boxes of damage equal to its Force every Combat Turn; when all the damage is repaired the owner may spend a Simple Action to reactivate the focus. Disrupting a sustaining focus will also disrupt the spell it is sustaining. Astrally projecting magicians whose foci become disrupted cannot reactivate them until their astral form rejoins their physical body.

um, that is a specific spell that allows you to do so... not just any mana based attack. meaning if you do not have that spell, you can not attack the focus directly.
which in turn, was turned into an  optional rule that appeared VERY late in the SR4 product line. (meaning, it is not a core rule.... so YMMV as to if you can do so at a table and may not be available for Missions play (Michael is the guy to ask about, he's a demo agent and easier to get the aaron as he is lives online:P )

I doubt very much if it will be included (many optional rules were cut in 5e) so you will probably have to wait until the 5e magic book comes out.

[Bach_The_Fox]

So let me summarize what I think I know about SR4:
- A focus is dual-natured so active on the astral. ✔
- This means it's visible and can be assensed from the astral. ✔
- It can, however, not be targeted with astral spells.
- So it cannot be attacked from from the astral.
- It can be attacked in itself on the physical realm, however. ✔

The SR4A and the FAQ are clear you can hit them with spells and attack them in astral combat, as long as you inflict physical damage.

[Michael Chandra]

I'm not familiar with SR5 rules, still need to read up on them more. Also note that as demo agent I do not have any access to extra official sources of clarification, it simply means I need to make judgement calls when something isn't clear and follow the official rules where I can.

[Bach_The_Fox]

@Reaver: As far is SR4 is concerned, it is a grey area that needed clarification, since the core book said you could cast spells on them, and that they could be attacked, but failed to mention what that actually means.

With SR5, you have the same issue, except  Foci are some sort of weird exception, that are immune to everything on the astral plane. Mana Barriers can be attacked, Astral forms can be attacked, but foci are invincible.

[Reaver]

ok, there is an issue here.... This is the spell in it's entirety from Digital Grimoire

Disrupt [Focus] (Direct)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Damage: Special • Duration: I • DV: (F÷2) – 1
This spell channels magical energy into disrupting an active
magical focus, dealing temporary damage to its astral form.
A focus that receives damage equal to its Force from this spell is
disrupted and becomes inactive; the magician bonded to the focus
cannot gain dice bonuses or any other benefit from the focus until
the focus is reactivated. A number of boxes of temporary damage
equal to the focus’s Force is “healed” at the beginning of the next
Combat Turn. The owner may spend a Simple action to reactivate
the focus when all damage is healed. Disrupting a sustaining focus
will also disrupt the spell it is sustaining. Astrally projecting magicians
whose foci become disrupted cannot reactivate them until
their astral form rejoins their physical body.
Disrupt [Focus] is designed to target a specific type of focus:
Disrupt Weapon Focus, Disrupt Anchoring Focus, Disrupt
Spellcasting Focus, etc. The target of each spell is designated by
the spell formula. A stacked focus is affected by this spell if at least
one of its focus types matches that of the spell, but the damage
dealt by the spell must equal or exceed the combined Force of the
stacked focus to disrupt it.

Combine this with that FAQ, and the issue is: the FAQ says the foci has a "barrier and structure rating" = to force.... but barriers have ARMOR and structure..... (not  barrier... barrier is a THNG, not a mechanic)... if we assume that they meant ARMOR where they say barrier... ok....?

Then we have this blurb from the SR4a pg 204

Direct Combat spells cast against nonliving objects are treated
as Success Tests; the caster must achieve enough hits to beat the item’s
Object Resistance (p.183). Net hits increase damage as normal (the
object does not get a resistance test)

So wait. What. we have 2 different rules conflicting.

Either it is a barrier with structure and armor = force used to resist damage, (as per what is implied by the FAQ) or it is NOT a barrier, and the spell test must beat the Object Resistance... which is never stated for the Foci.... So which is it? An undermined number of hits needed or an opposed test?

very confusing.