[Sichr]

Seal not working in jammed areas? In areas with Noise? In toxic underground tunels like Deep Lacuna? I dont think so. But imo they didn't say such thing. It would still be working. But it would take to turn it on manualy. On the oposite, in sensor and cloud covered area the suit would possibly just ask for: OK on yous pan and it would filter all butthurt toxicity off with every necesary filter in its place. I used to have armor hardwired to datajack, but even that wont give me the same benefits as access to clouded info.

[KarmaInferno]

I think people are misunderstanding what a "wireless bonus" is.

It is a bonus for being connected to the Matrix.

Not merely "wirelessly controlled".

You could have two guys with tripod equipped weapons. One guy uses his DNI to command his tripod to deploy. The second guy manually deploys his tripod.

The second guy, however, has his tripod connected to the Matrix, so it completes as a Free Action. It would complete as a Free Action whether it was manually deployed, DNI-controlled, or even if there was a trained chicken sitting atop the gun pushing the "deploy" release with it's beak. Just as long as the tripod is connected to the Matrix.

The first guy, despite using speed-of-thought controls, has his tripod deploy as a complex action. Because he is NOT Matrix connected, he cannot speed it up any faster, no matter the activation method.

It the problem more clear now?




-k

[Aaron]

I think people are misunderstanding what a "wireless bonus" is.

It is a bonus for being connected to the Matrix.

Not merely "wirelessly controlled".

You could have two guys with tripod equipped weapons. One guy uses his DNI to command his tripod to deploy. The second guy manually deploys his tripod.

The second guy, however, has his tripod connected to the Matrix, so it completes as a Free Action. It would complete as a Free Action whether it was manually deployed, DNI-controlled, or even if there was a trained chicken sitting atop the gun pushing the "deploy" release with it's beak. Just as long as the tripod is connected to the Matrix.

The first guy, despite using speed-of-thought controls, has his tripod deploy as a complex action. Because he is NOT Matrix connected, he cannot speed it up any faster, no matter the activation method.

It the problem more clear now?

Quite clear: your paradigm and the one in the book are not the same. Which is fine; the game at your table is yours, and you should play the game that's fun for you.

[Michael Chandra]

He doesn't intend to play it like that, but apparently that's how he reads the rules. Three more weeks to go before we can doublecheck. :<

[KarmaInferno]

I have the rules. The book is very clear.

The section on tripods states they take a Complex Action to deploy, unless the Wireless Bonus is active, in which case it deploys as a free action.

Wireless bonuses happen any time the device in question is Matrix connected, and only when it is Matrix connected. DNI or manual controls are irrelevant.

I even posted the entire Wireless Bonuses chapter earlier, if you want to check my posts.


-k

[Stahlseele]

The section on tripods states they take a Complex Action to deploy, unless the Wireless Bonus is active, in which case it deploys as a free action.

Wireless bonuses happen any time the device in question is Matrix connected, and only when it is Matrix connected. DNI or manual controls are irrelevant.

which is dumb.
and also what most people are complaining about.

[KarmaInferno]

I even posted the entire Wireless Bonuses chapter earlier, if you want to check my posts.

Link for the lazy:
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11304.msg208791#msg208791

It's in this same thread even.


-k

[Crunch]

I guess what I'm not seeing is the text that shows that the tripod and the chemsuit have a non wireless DNI connection.

[Aaron]

I guess what I'm not seeing is the text that shows that the tripod and the chemsuit have a non wireless DNI connection.

There is a bit in the book that says that all devices come with a universal data connector (I think that's what it's called), so you can make a direct connection with, for example, a datajack. While the device itself probably lacks a pilot program that can receive and execute commands from the owner, I'm sure a GM could probably be persuaded that such a connection is sufficient (especially when plied with the appropriate drink/snack--the GM, not the tripod).

[KarmaInferno]

I guess what I'm not seeing is the text that shows that the tripod and the chemsuit have a non wireless DNI connection.

It dosen't. There is no in-universe reasoning given. Just pure game mechanics. Turn the Matrix Connection on, get the Wireless Bonus.

The activation method is irrelevant. You could be activating them with a wireless DNI link, pushing a button, or poking it with a stick. If your Matrix connection is on, the tripod or chemseal activates as a free action. If not, it's a simple or complex action.


-k

[Crunch]

I guess what I'm not seeing is the text that shows that the tripod and the chemsuit have a non wireless DNI connection.

It dosen't. There is no in-universe reasoning given. Just pure game mechanics. Turn the Matrix Connection on, get the Wireless Bonus.

The activation method is irrelevant. You could be activating them with a wireless DNI link, pushing a button, or poking it with a stick. If your Matrix connection is on, the tripod or chemseal activates as a free action. If not, it's a simple or complex action.


-k

I guess I'm not seeing this as an issue when the hundreds of things not given a reason in the SR4 base book aren't. I guess different strokes for different strokes, but honestly all the whinging just sounds sort of silly to me.

[KarmaInferno]

I activate my tripod. It deploys as a Complex Action.

I turn on the tripod's Matrix connection, then activate it. It now deploys as a free action.

I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?

I could understand a non-powered version taking a Complex Action to deploy or stow, a powered tripod taking a Simple Action, and DNI-commanding the powered version taking a Free Action.

I can't see how being online would help.


-k

[Crunch]

I activate my tripod. It deploys as a Complex Action.

I turn on the tripod's Matrix connection, then activate it. It now deploys as a free action.

I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?



-k

Because whining Hacker players want you to be forced to ignore security so that they don't have to buy more skills.

"Drop the personal attack."

[White_Ghost]

I activate my tripod. It deploys as a Complex Action.

I turn on the tripod's Matrix connection, then activate it. It now deploys as a free action.

I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?



-k

Because whining Hacker players want you to be forced to ignore security so that they don't have to buy more skills.

"Drop the personal attack."

I wouldn't take it too personally. A4BG will find reason to dislike anything that makes hackers more viable in anything other than matrix actions. Even if they make sense. Anyone that agrees with those rules frustrate him.

Several of us agree that some of the wireless bonuses don't make as much sense as others, so I can see some of the arguments, but I'd like to hear more creative solutions to what we see as problems.

The Tripod example is pretty clear. I agree that no matter whether your tripod is connected to the matrix or not, it should deploy at the same rate. I believe a better solution would be the action involved by the character, for example:

• When the character is able to access the tripod through DNI (whether wireless or wired) they should be able to command it to deploy as a free action, and it deploys itself as any other robotic device would.
• When the character is not able to access the tripod through DNI, they are required to deploy the tripod manually as a complex action.

Matrix connection has no part in it, and the dm should not penalize the character if there is no interference (noise) between the characters DNI and the device.

These rules aren't perfect, and that is ok. The wireless bonuses are the thing that we have the most problem with, so let's all think of ways to make them better instead of continuing to be butthurt. The mods are listening, I was able to meet a lot of the developers, they love their players and they love their game.  I know they want to hear what we think so they can improve their product.

[Ghoulfodder]

I activate my tripod. It deploys as a Complex Action.

I turn on the tripod's Matrix connection, then activate it. It now deploys as a free action.

I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?

I could understand a non-powered version taking a Complex Action to deploy or stow, a powered tripod taking a Simple Action, and DNI-commanding the powered version taking a Free Action.

I can't see how being online would help.


-k

Can you explain why I should care either way? Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
I suggest if you don't like it, house rule it. No amount of complaining is going to change it, it's gone to the printers already. You've had you moan, you've given your feedback. It'll get taken on board for future editions / rules and accepted or rejected.

There really is nothing more to say other than to try and win at the internet. And in that game, everyone is a loser.