[DWC]

I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

No he's talking about that you already have the suit on, but for some magical reason flipping the switch to seal it suddenly becomes a Complex Action because the suit isn't logged in to the interwebz.

Whereas, if the wireless is on, you don't hit the manual control at all.

It would take about the same effort to activate that seal once the suit is already worn. It's patently ridiculous to make flipping a switch suddenly more effort just because some butt-hurt Hacker wants to do everything under the sun with just the few skills he uses for his hacking. Make those hackers actually have to buy more skills to do more things like everyone else has to do.

I understand that you don't like the wireless bonuses All4BigGuns, but I think you're overstating the case.

A) With DNI attachment (available only through wireless in this years model) mentally send command to seal and receive real time update of seal status. Free action.

B) Without DNI, hit some number of switches to activate seal. Manually check seals for integrity and take corrective action if needed. Complex Action.

That doesn't seem either game breaking or outside of the realm of believability to me.

Except that command can only be sent to the suit by transmitting it out into the matrix and then back to the suit.  You can't send the command from your commlink straight into the suit without being just as slow as physically pushing the button.

[Critias]

It would take about the same effort to activate that seal once the suit is already worn. It's patently ridiculous to make flipping a switch suddenly more effort just because some butt-hurt Hacker wants to do everything under the sun with just the few skills he uses for his hacking. Make those hackers actually have to buy more skills to do more things like everyone else has to do.

Gamer on the internet crass and upset about people having fun wrong: NEWS AT ELEVEN.

C'mon, dude.  Doesn't it exhaust you being this indignant and negative all the time?  Because it exhausts me, just reading it.

[RHat]

I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

No he's talking about that you already have the suit on, but for some magical reason flipping the switch to seal it suddenly becomes a Complex Action because the suit isn't logged in to the interwebz.

Whereas, if the wireless is on, you don't hit the manual control at all.

It would take about the same effort to activate that seal once the suit is already worn. It's patently ridiculous to make flipping a switch suddenly more effort just because some butt-hurt Hacker wants to do everything under the sun with just the few skills he uses for his hacking. Make those hackers actually have to buy more skills to do more things like everyone else has to do.

...  Hitting a mag release requires that you shift your thumb a bit, and is a Simple Action.  Moving your hands towards the seal, finding the switch, and hitting it is a more notable amount of time and concentration.  It is ENTIRELY consistent that manual activation of a chem seal take a Complex Action, and would even be inconsistent for it to take less.

[Razhul]

Why do we have to get so upset towards each other about this? It's a game and some rules are put in place to make it more fun, not more realistic. And even then, you can houserule whatever makes it fun for you.

Can we potentially get back to enjoying each other's company as Shadowrun fans, share some information about SR5 and just be excited that this great IP is being continued? 

[All4BigGuns]

It is ENTIRELY consistent that manual activation of a chem seal take a Complex Action, and would even be inconsistent for it to take less.

Only because you want it to be that way, and in my opinion, the only reason to want it to be that way is because of wanting hackers to be able to only take the Electronics and Cracking skill groups and be able to do everything in the game just as good as those 'roles' that specialize in those areas.

[RHat]

I'm sorry, but why do you think that manually activating a chem seal should take less focus and time than hitting a mag release?  My motivations are not at issue, here, and taking that route represents a logical fallacy.  You're also wrong, but that's not really the point.

[Carz]

You're talking about a mental command telling your gear to ___________ itself, versus doing __________ to it with your own two hands.  For about twenty years now we've had similar speed/convenience boosts in regards to a smartlink allowing you to, for instance, eject a mag and reload faster.  Did you have the same problems with that?

Someone a bit above brought to light an item that I was not aware of, which is that DNI is only available through the matrix. I guess that is the part I have an issue with.

So no, I did not have an issue with direct, non matrix DNI smart link making things faster.
I don't have an issue with DNI making your suit activate faster or your tripod deploy faster.

I have an issue with requiring matrix connectivity to do so instead of a direct wired DNI connection.

I also have an issue with the agreget computing explanation for things that would not benefit from it.

[Crunch]

Then can we accept because the corporations want it that way? Think of this as the new SOTA.

And again there is an additional bonus for being connected, not a penalty for not being.

[Baquette]

No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

[Crunch]

No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

It makes sense to me, so that statement would seem to be less absolute than you think it is.

[RHat]

No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

It does not make sense that the corps would want it this way?  Are you seriously attempting that line of argument?

[Baquette]

No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

It makes sense to me, so that statement would seem to be less absolute than you think it is.

Then can we accept because the corporations want it that way? Think of this as the new SOTA.

Talking about absolute.

@RHat

I am quite sure, that the corps want their own cybersoldiers and assassination black squads not working while in enemy territory, jungle or inhibitated buildings.

MfG

[RHat]

No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

It makes sense to me, so that statement would seem to be less absolute than you think it is.

Then can we accept because the corporations want it that way? Think of this as the new SOTA.

Talking about absolute.

@RHat

I am quite sure, that the corps want their own cybersoldiers and assassination black squads not working while in enemy territory, jungle or inhibitated buildings.

MfG

Not at all hard to get online in enemy territory or the jungle - that's what satlinks are for, after all.  As for inhibited buildings, well, a completely wirelessly isolated building with no external connectivity isn't a common enough thing to actually worry about - and there are ways, if you're going for an actual assault, to get around that.  Hell, you can just create a trail of mesh tags if you need to.

[Baquette]

, a completely wirelessly isolated building with no external connectivity isn't a common enough thing to actually worry about

It was in SR4 - wifi inhibitating paint was pretty common. Regarding your suggestions: lets not even start talking on how easy you can be detected and pinpointed while on enemy territory if you constantly give away signals. There is a reason for radio silence, especially when going against enemies who has the same capabilities in electronic warfare (it´s not only about hacking, it´s about infiltration on a small or large scale as well).

MfG

[Michael Chandra]

It makes sense to me that the corps would want that. It doesn't, however, make sense to me that it can't be hotwired by a Decker with Hardware, who jailbreaks my Chemical Seal to accept my wired trodes/datajack signal to employ faster.
Meanwhile I stick with a second commlink for communications only, which can still be hacked to feed me fake messages or attack me with a soundburst not unlike a flashbang, or disable my flare compensation and toss flares my way because I took the risk to accept Image Link input from my teammates.

As for Cloud Computing, I still would like to have the expensive option of wiring my cloud computing options into a cyberdeck. Give me a rule on how many of these calculations each deck level can run for me, so I know whether I lose my vision enhancement bonus when using my smartgun, and I know at the least that I can pay a big chunk of money to run my gear together.

And I don't mind that previous functionality in SR4 isn't there anymore in SR5, because they changed the mechanics, not just the technology. The 2074 model does exactly the same as the 2075 model when offline, because it works in the SR5 mechanics. The 2075 model, however, as well as previous models that get a firmware update, apparently got some more stuff now. And I have issues with the justifications for some of those.

- - -

Now something else I need to note: Limit modifiers mostly replaced dicepool modifiers. And I really, really, really like that. You only need to get them if you're good, can ignore them if you're not. +2 dice? Everyone needs that. +2 limit? If I got a pool of 9 and a limit of 6, one out of every 120 rolls will be limited. Do I really need to increase that? I'll pass.

Adding the dicepool modifiers back in after that is urgh. Which is why my first houserule move, which at this point I'm 95% certain I'll make, is to start by removing all dicepool modifier wireless bonuses out of the game. No matter whether you're wired, wireless or offline, all you get is the limit modifier. The dicepool modifier is gone, dead, out with the old.

In with the new would be hacking rules for communications. If you want to chitchat with others, expect a rule that lets enemy hackers send you wrong intel that cause limit penalties or even blatantly lie to you and trick you into making a really dumb move. Even if you keep your gun and ware offline, I'm pretty sure you still tend to not run radio-silent so there will be possibilities there.

As for Chemical Seal and other things like it: I'd simply make rules regarding how wires just LOVE sprinting and climbing and gymnastics and you getting hit with flechette ammo, so even if you jailbreak the stuff to work through trodes/datajacks, there will be consequences to the wired approach too.

And with that, I still give the hackers clear-defined new opportunities, there's cost/time/risk constraints to the protection mechanisms and I stick with the whole "forget dicepool modifiers" feel that I love.