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SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area

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Railgun

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« Reply #90 on: <06-21-13/1626:18> »
Because you don't need a mainframe to run pacman. For most of the stuff 'wireless' is used for, a Raspberry Pi would do the trick, so I'm safely assuming that the immensely more powerful commlinks of SR5's era are way enough for almost anything that could justify the wireless bonuses. They have been for 20 years in the canon.
So I don't see why a corp security guard or shadowrunner would make him/herself vulnerable on purpose through using distributed computing when a bit of commlink CPU time is more than enough.

I mean, seriously, taser darts sending you information about the target's condition doesn't require distributed computing to display (the sensor's on the dart side, all the wireless does is sending you that information).
« Last Edit: <06-21-13/1627:51> by Railgun »

RHat

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« Reply #91 on: <06-21-13/1652:47> »
Whatever the computers of 2075 can do, the distributed computing of 2075 could do better.  Now, some examples just aren't going to fit with that model, but it sort of seems like you cherry-oicked that to suit your point.  Vision Enhancement, for example, would be able to make use of higher-complexity algorithms if it can access distributed computing - after all, it has to work in live-time, which is a serious factor in what can actually be achieved computationally.
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Railgun

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« Reply #92 on: <06-21-13/1721:44> »
I strongly disagree with the first statement. Distributed computing introduces latency that running on a local commlink wouldn't (because distributed computing requires communication with the server, dispatching of computing jobs, etc.).

That said, even if I agreed with it, distributed computing for the sort of tasks that give "wireless bonuses" really seems like using a sidewinder missile to kill a mosquito - or as I said, using a mainframe to run pacman. Sure, you can run pacman much faster on a mainframe, but it doesn't provide you with any real usable advantage because an iPhone 1 (or a 1995 pentium I) can already process the game at a much higher speed than what you could possibly use or need.

Distributed computing would be really good for computation intensive (by SR5 standards) tasks that would take seconds or more for a commlink to process, not the ones that would take 100ths of a second, and I haven't seen anything that doesn't fit that description in the wireless bonuses, not for computers that have been able to process full-VR simsense games for decades. At this level, I don't see why Red Sams or Shadowrunner would make themselves extremely vulnerable for insignificant gains.

That said, requiring PAN connectivity is plenty enough vulnerability with the proper electronics/signal amplifiers or wireless relay microdrones. It's just that with such a system, hacking someone's smartlink will require taking risks or being clever.
« Last Edit: <06-21-13/1723:24> by Railgun »

Aaron

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« Reply #93 on: <06-21-13/1739:27> »
I strongly disagree with the first statement. Distributed computing introduces latency that running on a local commlink wouldn't (because distributed computing requires communication with the server, dispatching of computing jobs, etc.).

Distributed computing doesn't need a dedicated server if the networking protocols include the ability for every device to be its own central server for each task. That reduces the algorithm from quadratic to linear. </nerdtalk>

Wildcard

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« Reply #94 on: <06-21-13/1742:28> »
I understand equations both the simple and quadratical.

I was permanently banned from the forums for consistently attacking my fellow posters and trolling the boards. I thought I could get "revenge" on FastJack for being banned by updating my sig to insult him, but all it proved was how much of an idiot I am.

Lysanderz

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« Reply #95 on: <06-21-13/1744:06> »
Computer theory is complicated.

Railgun

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« Reply #96 on: <06-21-13/1744:21> »
I strongly disagree with the first statement. Distributed computing introduces latency that running on a local commlink wouldn't (because distributed computing requires communication with the server, dispatching of computing jobs, etc.).

Distributed computing doesn't need a dedicated server if the networking protocols include the ability for every device to be its own central server for each task. That reduces the algorithm from quadratic to linear. </nerdtalk>
Fair enough. I have some experience with distributed computing but it's very limited. That said, am I wrong in thinking that distributed computing does introduce some "time cost" that aren't always justified for small-scale tasks that are already fast to compute locally?

PeterSmith

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« Reply #97 on: <06-21-13/1802:10> »
That said, am I wrong in thinking that distributed computing does introduce some "time cost" that aren't always justified for small-scale tasks that are already fast to compute locally?

No, that's a reasonable line of thinking. That said, if there are devices in SR5 that do require access to the Matrix to run additional functionality it means there is something about that functionality that cannot be processed on the device itself, or cannot be done so in a reasonable period of time.
Power corrupts.
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Railgun

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« Reply #98 on: <06-21-13/1813:12> »
That said, am I wrong in thinking that distributed computing does introduce some "time cost" that aren't always justified for small-scale tasks that are already fast to compute locally?

No, that's a reasonable line of thinking. That said, if there are devices in SR5 that do require access to the Matrix to run additional functionality it means there is something about that functionality that cannot be processed on the device itself, or cannot be done so in a reasonable period of time.
But that's just it: in view of everything I've seen in the fluff since SR2 (in terms of what computers can do and what cyberware could do in 2055), I don't see any of the "wireless bonuses" that look like they reasonably fit that description; I don't think it's unreasonable of me to just houserule that wireless bonuses don't need matrix connection at this point.

The DRM/factory  standard explanation is also perfectly valid, mind you, just not for the people involved in a typical run :p.

RHat

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« Reply #99 on: <06-21-13/1825:01> »
I think perhaps you should be more specific than just "things you've seen in fluff" - it would take a pretty serious and specific fluff statement to dismiss the idea that an algorithm set that runs on your entire visual field and analyzes full detail could take some compute time.  In particular, it could be that the local version uses a form of top-down processing like the human brain does (perhaps even some form of IDA*), while the distributed version uses some sort of bottom-up processing that allows it to work with much finer detail and tag stuff that the loval version might dismiss.
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Boomstick

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« Reply #100 on: <06-21-13/1946:04> »
Talking about processing power (I love this thread, lots of ideas boiling up), the decks are said to use some limited form of parallel processing to gain enough power to bypass the security measures. Then I think it would be reasonable to say that the hardware took a general powerup with the new new matrix for the sake of handling these protocol, right?

Which means that even commlink have to have increased in power themselves. Not to the same extent as they don't perform the same tasks than decks and use legitimate keys and so on, but if they are keys and so on (because keys are an old concept, security protocols evolved in nobody knows what) that need the power of multiple links to be broken, I guess that mean their use would no be so transparent when it comes to strong protocols (like the equivalent of AES 256 or RSA 2048 and things like that for our current computers).

If you think about it, there could be "levels" of bonuses when they come to be possibly related to distributed computing.
Interfacing your stuff with your commlink (by any mean, which is more convenient for you) would give the least, at best a +1 bonus on a test limit, and some special goodies like ignoring a normal glitch involving the use of the implant for the most powerful of links, interfacing with a deck would give a +2 to test limit, plus ability to ignore a normal glitch and maybe a few things not measured in dices and ratings, and being connected with a mainframe or the matrix would go so far as give a +1 to +3 dice pool bonus in addition of the rest, for example.
Granted it would make sense. But for such applications I think I would require special additional programs like "pilots" to run on your link to interface the thing properly with matrix. No matter how efficient are the protocols, the facts that implants are very specific and these tasks somewhat not made to be handled in an internal fashion would mean to me that you need something specific to handle that.

To balance it, I would take noise into account when connection woud be needed. And maybe the fact that distributed computing or not, at times calculations take a so specialized form that they can't be divided in smaller parts than a given threshold. I thinking for example of some special matrices types that should only be handled by using multiple dynamic operations at the same time. I don't know if that actually exist but I know there are some programmation objects in some languages that can only be managed  in specific conditions, in dynamic or static ways (and I am not talking about the object type, but about its internal processing). Doesn't seem odd to me to imagine that it would exist for some tasks (like encryption), and then you would not be able to take advantage of being in an electronic shop because those puny comlinks or below would not be able to handle these smallest parts from the start.

That might be something I would houserule given time.
Still agree with Railgun on the fact that sometimes, too much power is not needed.


Distributed computing doesn't need a dedicated server if the networking protocols include the ability for every device to be its own central server for each task. That reduces the algorithm from quadratic to linear. </nerdtalk>
Well, I don't really know that kind of things and it's a pity, but from what I understand you are talking about the algorithm giving the task execution time depending on the time of protocol? It is very counterintuitive, or maybe I did not understand the concept of "every device being its own central server for each task.", because for me, if there are multiple things deciding on their own what part they will take of the calculation for example, it will just end with redundancy and as such, with lost cycles. Also, could be data collision, since even if the calculation on part 1 is done, some other host could recalculate it again after. But that would not be. I guess my assumptions are plain stupid there because that could not be something some computer head would come with the idea of, but then I missed something on this concept.
I should take some more degrees in math and computer sciences. Learning by yourself hits limits at times.

@RHat: By IDA, do you mean that: http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=959791 ? Interesting. Thank you very much, wasn't aware of that.

Edit; Another idea came up which would fit with giving a role to deckers into fight; while my ideas allow the use of wires for some applications, deckers could still try to hack the deck (as usual), or instead, locally work the matrix in a way it would refuse distributed computing operations from some "IP" or "mac adress" (see, the SR5 equivalent of it). Or completely wreck the local grid in a limited way indeed, but perturbating the cooperation among the nodes. Indeed, something GOD would be very pissed off at. But sometimes it's better to be bold than to be dead.
« Last Edit: <06-21-13/2002:45> by Boomstick »
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Railgun

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« Reply #101 on: <06-21-13/2239:53> »
So, I was looking at the rule, and it looks like all the wireless communication goes through the matrix. There aren't any ways to handle direct device-to-device communication outside of the matrix (which makes slaves un-hackable without going through the master, and means that drones necessarily have a matrix presence).

Are there going to be rules covering these in the future? Because right now, a rigger can't use his drones in the desert, at least not wirelessly, which is a bit (lot) silly.

RHat

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« Reply #102 on: <06-21-13/2255:41> »
The only way that wasn't true of slaves in SR4, Railgun, was through a direct wired connection - it is completely impossible in SR4 to hack a slaved node via wireless without first going through the master.
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Aaron

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« Reply #103 on: <06-22-13/0037:01> »
The "can't touch slaves except through the master" approach comes with its own problems and complications. There was a kitschy name for it (hack-a-stack maybe?) in SR4.

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #104 on: <06-22-13/0817:27> »
I think his concern was about drones being impossible to use in places without Matrix access. 
Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.