[Dinendae]

No, but the fact that mildly augmented builds are strictly better does - no matter how good an unaugmented adept is, an augmented adept with basically the same build could be BETTER.  And that, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case.

Pretty much this. I don't need to throw 20+ dice for a test, but for something like 1.6 essence (2 power points) I can bump up my attributes around 8 points  (combined, and maybe slightly more with that .4 essence left) permanently. Factor that against Attribute Boost (Rating x .25 power points, but is only good for a short time and must be bought per physical attribute), or Improved Physical Attribute (Rating x .75 power points, permanent boost but must be chosen per attribute). I would far rather not use augmentation on an adept, as it just doesn't fit in my mind, but I am even more adverse to being a one-trick-pony or just mediocre to slightly competent in the SR Missions I play in. I am hoping the announced adept tattoos go a ways towards addressing this in SR5.

[All4BigGuns]

No, but the fact that mildly augmented builds are strictly better does - no matter how good an unaugmented adept is, an augmented adept with basically the same build could be BETTER.  And that, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case.

Pretty much this. I don't need to throw 20+ dice for a test, but for something like 1.6 essence (2 power points) I can bump up my attributes around 8 points  (combined, and maybe slightly more with that .4 essence left) permanently. Factor that against Attribute Boost (Rating x .25 power points, but is only good for a short time and must be bought per physical attribute), or Improved Physical Attribute (Rating x .75 power points, permanent boost but must be chosen per attribute). I would far rather not use augmentation on an adept, as it just doesn't fit in my mind, but I am even more adverse to being a one-trick-pony or just mediocre to slightly competent in the SR Missions I play in. I am hoping the announced adept tattoos go a ways towards addressing this in SR5.

Then just accept the fact that while you may not be the "God of All Characters" right off like the Street Sam is, you have far better capacity to improve--and improve far beyond what the Street Sam can.

[Dinendae]

Then just accept the fact that while you may not be the "God of All Characters" right off like the Street Sam is, you have far better capacity to improve--and improve far beyond what the Street Sam can.

I don't want to be "The god of all characters," nor did I even remotely imply that. I get it, you hate the idea of augmented adepts; your post history has shown an extreme dislike for augmented adepts. I don't like the idea of augmenting adepts; I always saw them as using magic to do what others need bioware or cyberware to accomplish. If Attribute Boost wasn't per attribute, then it would fit in exactly with my concept of an adept (although you would have those screaming it was too powerful then).

[All4BigGuns]

Then just accept the fact that while you may not be the "God of All Characters" right off like the Street Sam is, you have far better capacity to improve--and improve far beyond what the Street Sam can.

I don't want to be "The god of all characters," nor did I even remotely imply that. I get it, you hate the idea of augmented adepts; your post history has shown an extreme dislike for augmented adepts. I don't like the idea of augmenting adepts; I always saw them as using magic to do what others need bioware or cyberware to accomplish. If Attribute Boost wasn't per attribute, then it would fit in exactly with my concept of an adept (although you would have those screaming it was too powerful then).

That was more directed at the ones who insist on augmented adepts being the only valid option and insult those who do not do it.

[Crimsondude]

You should assume that the Adept conversation arose a long time ago.

I'd certainly hope so.  Doesn't mean we can't have one of our own, though.

True.

I forgot to make the point I was trying to make, and now I don't think I should. Anyway, carry on.

[I_V_Saur]

Honestly, the most simplistic way to curb Augmentation in Awakened, and Emerged for the matter, is to put a hard cap on Initiation and Submersion, but only for those who have damaged their Essence. People who get shot right up, that Essence Hole will heal. People with metal in their heads and hearts? That should strip down their upper limits, even cause interference with resisting Drain and Fading.

Mechanically, Augmentation is just plain cheaper for short-term boosts. Considering the fact that, with enough Karma, Adepts and Magicians can get right back to where they were, and beyond, with no negative impact, and they can get more Karma by using those implants, Bio at least, and some Cyber, is almost a free power boost. In the short term, it's better. Long-term, it's better. It has very few drawbacks, especially in moderation - get a few Deltaware implants, not only do you have zero chance of Cyberpsychosis, but given the minimal ESS loss, two or three runs, at nearly twice the previous efficiency, put you on a whole new level.

Street Samurai vs Adepts, Sammies win. In a straight-up fight, they win. In terms of flexibility, they win. In the long term, with the constantly shifting tech, there will always be a new toy to plug in. They will achieve their goal first, and have a Luxury Lifestyle. They will survive longer, unless they go under the wrong knife. They don't attract the same attention.

Cyber and Bio creep me out, but mechanically, not using them can make you fall to the wayside.

[Shaidar]

In practice, they feel different, but while making a character, I'm stricken by how similar they are. Magic and Technomancy, by their natures, should be mechanically quite radically opposed.

Let me guess, you also believe that ranged, close, and astral combat should use "quite radically opposed" resolution mechanics to show that they are different? Or that shamans should summon spirits with D6 and variable TNs, while mages use D20 roll-under?

No need to get nasty, now. I understand that mechanical consistency is important, but, in the end, it simply does not make sense to have completely different concepts depicted in parallel. Yes, when a Rogue and Wizard punch someone, they roll the same. Yes, when making a ranged magical attack, it should be about the same as when throwing a dagger or shooting a bow.

Should a Rogue's Sneak Attack be mechanically the same as a Wizard's Teleport spell? They achieve the same goal, don't they - sneaking up behind someone and inflicting damage. Except in such completely different ways, trying to write them in with the same brush stroke is silly.

Technomancy, and the Matrix in general, are meant to reflect reality. Astral actions are quite different, almost alien. Making them so similar...Maybe it's just me, but I feel that it limits their potential.

I have to voice my agreement with I_V_Saur on this point.  The mechanical similarities between Magicians (both Hermetics and Shamen) and Emerged dilute their differences IMO.  I've been playing SR since 1990 where there was a very strong difference between the two houses of Magicians.  That didn't change in 3 rules editions, then... BAM.  SR4 came along and suddenly all traditions are equal and look the same rules are used for a type of hacker.

It nearly soured me on the SR line all together.  The rules identity glosses over the story differences to such a degree that finding the difference is getting harder by the book.  I sold all of my D&D books (nearly a thousand US dollars worth) because they did the same thing when they went to 4th Edition and I haven't thought about it for another purchase since.  I'm giving SR4 a chance but if the varying flavors mesh too much more SR5 won't be getting any of my money.

[RHat]

There are, however, right ways and wrong ways to establish differing rules identities.  Building different rules for each from the ground up is the latter - instead, you should be using a common core that things spin off of; you layer new stuff on top of that so that it is both easy to cross between and at the same time notably different.

[Shaidar]

The flavor comes in how close or how far from the root core mechanic the variation begins.  Too close to the core mechanic and it is all a mess.  Too far from the core mechanic and everything tastes like vanilla ice cream.  When you ave more than one variation on a side mechanic you again have to judge the spacing of variation.

The variation between magical traditions isn't great enough to have different tastes, and the copy/paste over to technomancers is also not varied enough to provide a different flavor.

[Aaron]

They are "equally viable". That munchy types insist on throwing the implants in doesn't change that.

Street Samurai: A bit more power right off the bat. Gives up power in the long term.
Adept: Not as powerful at first, but becomes "Oh My God" powerful later on.

That's the theory, I know, but something piqued my interest when Grendel made the characters for last Gen Con' s tournament. Grendel, if you don't know him, is an excellent character builder (which is to say he's good at engineering characters, not that hanging around with him builds character). The two-part tournament was written to go with the release of Shadowrun 2050, so the first night was with newbie runners and set in 2050, and the second night was set in 2074 when those newbies were prime runners.

The adept on that team, somewhere between 2050 and 2075, started burning out and picking up cyberware. The reason was that, for the same character improvement costs, Grendel couldn't get the adept's power level anywhere near the samurai's, so he kept some adept powers and started adding augmentations, and even then the samurai outstripped the adept. This was with equal boosts in Karma and nuyen (or an exchange between the two, I'm not quite sure about the specifics, but every character had the same boost).

The main problem is that adepts have to pour Karma into their initiation, then their Magic rating, and then they still need to spend Karma to improve attributes and skills. Street samurai, on the other hand, can spend nuyen on their improvements, leaving their Karma free for skill and attribute improvement.

So yeah. I found that intriguing.

[Crimsondude]

Hrmph.

[CanRay]

Grendel, if you don't know him, is an excellent character builder (which is to say he's good at engineering characters, not that hanging around with him builds character).

I need to hang around the second type more often.

[Dinendae]

The adept on that team, somewhere between 2050 and 2075, started burning out and picking up cyberware. The reason was that, for the same character improvement costs, Grendel couldn't get the adept's power level anywhere near the samurai's, so he kept some adept powers and started adding augmentations, and even then the samurai outstripped the adept. This was with equal boosts in Karma and nuyen (or an exchange between the two, I'm not quite sure about the specifics, but every character had the same boost).

The main problem is that adepts have to pour Karma into their initiation, then their Magic rating, and then they still need to spend Karma to improve attributes and skills. Street samurai, on the other hand, can spend nuyen on their improvements, leaving their Karma free for skill and attribute improvement.

So yeah. I found that intriguing.

That goes along with what I_V_Saur  was saying :

Mechanically, Augmentation is just plain cheaper for short-term boosts. Considering the fact that, with enough Karma, Adepts and Magicians can get right back to where they were, and beyond, with no negative impact, and they can get more Karma by using those implants, Bio at least, and some Cyber, is almost a free power boost. In the short term, it's better. Long-term, it's better. It has very few drawbacks, especially in moderation - get a few Deltaware implants, not only do you have zero chance of Cyberpsychosis, but given the minimal ESS loss, two or three runs, at nearly twice the previous efficiency, put you on a whole new level.

Street Samurai vs Adepts, Sammies win. In a straight-up fight, they win. In terms of flexibility, they win. In the long term, with the constantly shifting tech, there will always be a new toy to plug in. They will achieve their goal first, and have a Luxury Lifestyle. They will survive longer, unless they go under the wrong knife. They don't attract the same attention.

Without a major revamp to how adepts work at the core, they'll always lag behind everyone else. I am anxious to see the tattoo foci, and how it might be used to fix this.

[Rapier]

Many comments:

Number 1: The reason I had a reaction on TM/Magic integration is when one TM tells Perri to meet her "at the Temple", suggesting some form of "tech worship". Another comment that made me blink is the one saying that sufficieltly advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic. Anyway, my bad.

Number 2: "Orange Queen, Laughing Man, Wordsmyth, Script Diver, Hecate, and others again would really make my day."

Indeed but If I remember correctly: Orange Queen is Hestaby, Laughing Man is Harlequin and Wordsmyth is Ehran. Their function has been replaced by Frosty in giving you peeks at what the "Elders" are doing so to me that fine as she seems to be more "objective" and is a contemporary of the Sixth World.

Rapier

[I_V_Saur]

I have to wonder what Frosty is leaving out.