[Wildcard]

And they've been told already how they can be "effective" and "not useless" in combat. They can either invest in combat skills, or buy Gunnery and a drone or two. It's available to them, and doesn't hose another character type.

Exactly. All you have to do is reverse the argument to see how foolish it is.

Street Samurai should have the ability to hack using their swords, so they're not useless in matrix combat. They shouldn't be as good as hackers, but their swords should be able to surf the `trix and break into a few nodes.

[emsquared]

Not using Background Count doesn't make one a poor GM.

I agree, that's why I qualified that with "as appropriate".

I've been to around 10 agent run missions now, and I've yet to see background count applied once. If you're suggesting that 4 different GMs were poor GMs... Maybe? I think it's more a matter of being poorly written and oft ignored, as opposed to wards and other such magical phenomenon.

If they're in their and the GM ignored them, could be poor GMing if the Mage over-powers things. But in general, Missions is another thing altogether, presumably they have their reasons for what they do when they design those. I don't play them, I don't care what they do with them. But that is the design, not the GM. However my GM, when he wants it to not be Magic-run - "Oh, btw, your target is in a high BG area, sorry". Noise can easily be the same way, "sorry this is an EM confluence area, gonna have to try something else."

[Wildcard]

That seems more binary then I'd like.

The other problem is matrix access itself. If your node is the city away, but you're jacked in locally, there shouldn't be an issue. Seriously, the first coast-to-coast telegraph message in the united states only had a half second delay. A half second! With the advent of wireless and fiber optic communications, city-wide delays would be nill.

 So Noise is going to have to be a wireless only feature, for devices not also on the matrix. (Is that possible now?)

Ideally, I'd like to see something as simple as -1 modifier per [distance unit] between attacker and target. Since I'm in love with the idea of the hacker *being there*, and not in their impenetrable invisible vehicle located nearby, i'd have that unit be a meter.  I'm also an asshole, so take that suggestion with a grain of salt.

[emsquared]

That seems more binary then I'd like.
...
Ideally, I'd like to see something as simple as -1 modifier per [distance unit] between attacker and target. Since I'm in love with the idea of the hacker *being there*, and not in their impenetrable invisible vehicle located nearby, i'd have that unit be a meter.  I'm also an asshole, so take that suggestion with a grain of salt.

Well, I probably made it sound more binary then I'd like as well.

Your latter bit there is more what I was envisioning for Noise in general, but if Hacking becomes a problem in combat, I'd have no problems saying, 'sorry, not here'.

[Mirikon]

A4BG, you and Falconer agreeing doesn't mean you're both right, merely that your biases coincide for once.

As for one character type being able to 'hose' another character type, that's already well entrenched in the system. Or maybe you haven't tried fighting a high Force spirit as a mundane before? And yes, getting some ranks in gunnery and picking up a combat drone is a good thing for a hacker to do, as branching out into rigging is the easiest secondary role for a hacker to pick up. But what does the hacker do when the drone isn't around? Lot of places you can't go with a combat drone sporting heavy weapons following you around, you know. What do they do then? Hide in the corner until everything is finished? Taking over a street samurai's eyes and making him see friends as foes and vice-versa is no different from a mage doing physical illusions, and it is easier to prevent and shake off than a mage's spells are.

[All4BigGuns]

As for one character type being able to 'hose' another character type, that's already well entrenched in the system. Or maybe you haven't tried fighting a high Force spirit as a mundane before? And yes, getting some ranks in gunnery and picking up a combat drone is a good thing for a hacker to do, as branching out into rigging is the easiest secondary role for a hacker to pick up. But what does the hacker do when the drone isn't around? Lot of places you can't go with a combat drone sporting heavy weapons following you around, you know. What do they do then? Hide in the corner until everything is finished? Taking over a street samurai's eyes and making him see friends as foes and vice-versa is no different from a mage doing physical illusions, and it is easier to prevent and shake off than a mage's spells are.

Maintain any tactical network the team has. Scramble opposing comms. Shut down elevators to cut off enemy reinforcements. Take control of enemy security drones. Hack in and shut down any alarms.

[Wildcard]

What do they do then? Hide in the corner until everything is finished?

Again, that argument sucks. What does a street sam do while cybercombat is going on, Hide in the corner until everything is finished?

[KarmaInferno]

And they've been told already how they can be "effective" and "not useless" in combat. They can either invest in combat skills, or buy Gunnery and a drone or two. It's available to them, and doesn't hose another character type.

Exactly. All you have to do is reverse the argument to see how foolish it is.

Street Samurai should have the ability to hack using their swords, so they're not useless in matrix combat. They shouldn't be as good as hackers, but their swords should be able to surf the `trix and break into a few nodes.

Actually...

Why not? Seriously, hear me out.

Normally when the hacker goes to do his thing, everyone else just takes a break to get a drink or something.

What if the street sam could jack in and substitute his abilities to do basic stuff? His deck translating gun or sword attacks into combat utilities, and so forth. He'd not have anywhere near the flexibility and power a true hacker has, but he could certainly provide backup instead of sitting there watching the hacker's body.


-k

[Wildcard]

If jacking in could provide a 1-to-1 translation? I'd be in love with the system.

I'm not sure what use the hacker would be then, however.

[Falconer]

Somehow I don't think the game gets better if it's merely turned into a gigantic game of "miracle shooter".


Similarly, I don't think the analogues to background count are called for at all.   if anything it strikes me as more of a distance thing...  almost as if signal degraded as range increased just like it does in real life.   Or taking a page out of the proxy rules for originating yourself from a remote node instead of your own... reduce the response accordingly.


And yes, rather than nasty stuff stuff like hacking cybereyes which have no good reason whatsoever to be directly hackable.   He should be exploring the buildings security system...   if he wants combat ability the best way is to turn the corps own security against itself.  By doing things like stealing drones if he can't bring his own.  Misdirecting security patrols away.   Information warfare.   Putting anyone with cyber at the hackers mercy is simply a poor and reckless idea.


Merging hackers and riggers was a good thing in the system.   The getaway driver schtick that true riggers had and remote decker never worked well from a game perspective.   Keeping hackers into secondary drone combatants is the best way to handle any kind of combat inability.

[cre100382]

The "Noise" sounds (no pun intended) like a lag issue.  How many nodes do you have to travel through to get to your target, kind of thing.  If you are taking on a node three floors up in the same corp building there shouldn't be much, if any, but if you have to go through ten or 20 nodes to get to what you are taking a crack at, then there should be some kind of reaction time lag for the signal to go through all those points.  I don't think it is distance more of a translation and transfer of data back through those nodes.

This could also apply to the corp Matrix Security trying to track you.  They are on their home turf, but the closer you get to your home node, the farther they are from theirs.  I don't know, I only play a hacker in a couple of sessions, I couldn't get a feel for it in that limited time.

[Sichr]

To me the Noise sounds like something that limits wireless functionality and makes hacking in hi-noise areas difficult. And I can see the way to avoid it is...to use cyberdeck and look for wired systems that should be noise-free. That means you has to be on site with the rest of the team. And this makes you target so you have to be able to defend yourself. The idea of learning some cybercombat skills when you are heavy cybered samurai sounds to me like adept using astral perception: He decides if he uses combat skill or astral combat skill. If this is the way, Im happy that the longest love relationship in my life will continue 

It will, anyway

[Falconer]

Sichr:
Adepts using astral perception don't decide to use 'astral combat'.   Once you turn on astral perception, you're using trained only 'assensing' and 'astral combat' against any astral entities you chose to attack.. you can only use your physical ones to attack (at a -2 penalty) other physical forms.   Look at the astral combat table in the FAQ.

So the analogy is completely blown...


But yeah noise strikes me as a combination of 'static' zones.  Which to be honest I've never seen used yet in play.   And 'ping'  (the farther away you are, the slower you are).   We'll have to see if they work in something akin to the unwired proxy rules for originating all your traffic from a remote node from the get go.

[Sichr]

Adept with Killing hands = dual with natural weapon

[Falconer]

*sigh*...
That specifically only goes for things with both the named *critter* powers.

An adept does not qualify as a critter with the CRITTER POWERS of 'dual-natured' (he's not stuck dual natured  at all times now is he!), and he does not have the 'natural weapons' critter power.

He has the 'astral perception' adept power, and the 'killing hands' adept power.

So two strikes... try again.  You're using house rules and ignoring the rulebook.


Contrary to most... I don't think adepts are gimped in the least and find them some of the most potent charcters in game since investment into magical skills such as assensing/astral combat is completely optional for them.  They simply build the character almost as if mundane, then sprinkle magic to make it even better.