[Corgano]

Corgano:
I see your point.. but the combat spell is pre-existing when it enters into the background count.   The spell starts at the caster... forms it's own astral construct which then flies to the target.

Isn't that only the case when it comes to indirect combat spells? If I remember correctly, direct combat spells (like power bolt) create the spells effect at or within the target, which is why transparent barriers (like a window) between the mage and the target have no effect when it comes to direct combat spells.

If you need a fluff reason why...

Nope, not really. I am mostly interested in how the rules are officially intended. And since the only passage in the rules that goes into this specific situation mentions that all spells are affected, it seems to me that the rules intend to weaken both sustained and instant spells.


In regard to the "abuse" of Astral Hazing:
You and Mithlas make it sound as if this quality makes a character significantly more powerful, when in reality that isn't the case. None of the characters abilities (social, matrix, combat, etc...) receive any buff from it. All it does is to protect a character against one specific kind of attacks: Magical attacks. He remains just a vulnerable to social attacks, matrix attacks, poisons, disease, bullets, grenades, etc....  as anybody else.
And while such a BGC is certainly an advantage for a character who is likely to be attacked by magic and unlikely to be supported by magic, this is not the most common situation for runners. Most runners probably have at least one mage in their team and stand to profit from spells like invisibility, levitation, healing, mask, increase attribute, etc.... And at the same time they will only occasionally run into enemy mages. So essentially he loses some significant magical advanatage all the time, while only occasionally receiving some benefit against enemy mages.

[Falconer]

Last bit... it's a negative quality... it's generally a much bigger issue to be protected from mages than it is to get the rare occasional heal spell.   (especially given the first-aid and normal healing rules).   You also fail to realize for a street sam with 1 essence... the radius is only 1m... so the character does not screw up his mage ally... and he also recieves counterspelling.     So it is hardly a negative quality in any way shape or form... hence my disgust with it.


Spell constructs:
No all spell constructs start at the caster and fly to the target (this is why mana spells work as ranged attacks on the astral and are also subject to visibility penalties for resisting them).   You're confusing the elemental indirect attack aspect of a ranged indirect attack... with how all spells travel from the caster to the target.   in prior editions this was more explicit like I said... even allowing you to 'counterspell' by intercepting the spell before it reached it's target on the astral.

A astrally traceable link goes back to the caster for any sustained spell through which the caster controls the spell.



As far as the other... the explicit text of the quality specifically does not include instant spells in any way.  (outside of the reduction in magic of the caster).   it does not deal solely with what happens when a sustained spell enters a count.   If they would have said all spells or just spells... it would have made just as much sense as it does when they said sustained spells.

Your argument gives no reason whatsoever to divine the intent of the authors here.   They intentionally put the word sustained in there.

RAW clearly states that only sustained spells are affected.   RAI is open to argument, but the clear writing provides no effect for a BGC on an instant combat spell like fireball entering it.

[All4BigGuns]

RAW clearly states that only sustained spells are affected.   RAI is open to argument, but the clear writing provides no effect for a BGC on an instant combat spell like fireball entering it.

If you believe that so much, then why complain about Astral Hazing? Going by that, there is only the negative (healing spells--much better than first aid or natural--and "buff" spells are sustained).

[Mithlas]

You and Mithlas make it sound as if this quality makes a character significantly more powerful, when in reality that isn't the case.

Not really. I just follow the premise that you don't have to be a sophist to consider points of view outside your own - if using a generous interpretation of background count, it's possible to abuse Astral Haze. I've never seen it done, though - never even seen a player try to take it. It and qualities like Infirm or Uneducated, everybody makes enough use of things it impacts that it just gets more in the way than it's worth; for the players (myself included where applicable). As the GM I can manage to make it work eventually because I am the one creating the circumstances and the NPCs in them.

All it does is to protect a character against one specific kind of attacks: Magical attacks.

It doesn't protect from Instant-duration spells, according to everything I can find in Street Magic. No protection from Firebolt or Manabolt, though it would to Control Thoughts or Ignite. That being said, it doesn't strictly say "all instant effect spells are unaffected", so different tables could rule differently on whether they should be included in "reduced spell" or not.

So essentially he loses some significant magical advanatage all the time, while only occasionally receiving some benefit against enemy mages.

Exactly the point I was making earlier. Although the 'occasional benefit against enemy mages' varies by table - I know many GMs increase the rate of Awakened to make things more interesting and prevent PCs from being the only ones with magic.

[Corgano]

RAW clearly states that only sustained spells are affected.   RAI is open to argument, but the clear writing provides no effect for a BGC on an instant combat spell like fireball entering it.

If you believe that so much, then why complain about Astral Hazing? Going by that, there is only the negative (healing spells--much better than first aid or natural--and "buff" spells are sustained).

Good question...

All it does is to protect a character against one specific kind of attacks: Magical attacks.

It doesn't protect from Instant-duration spells, according to everything I can find in Street Magic. No protection from Firebolt or Manabolt, though it would to Control Thoughts or Ignite. That being said, it doesn't strictly say "all instant effect spells are unaffected", so different tables could rule differently on whether they should be included in "reduced spell" or not.

You don't really need a house rule for this issue. While SM doesn't address the situation of someone casting a spell into a BGC while standing outside of it, the rules for "Astral Hazing" in the Runners Companion do address it. On page 116 is says: "This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at or in the vicinity of the character."  Imho this makes it pretty clear that all spells, including instant spells, are affected by it.

[Falconer]

How convenient that you quote the fluff sentence then immediately ignore the crunch sentence which immediate follows it which states how to execute it.

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (*SEE PAGE 117 STREET MAGIC*)...."

The quality merely creates localized a BGC subject to all the normal rules of a background count.  And it's supposed to be a negative quality... but in actual pay it almost never is.

[Corgano]

How convenient that you quote the fluff sentence then immediately ignore the crunch sentence which immediate follows it which states how to execute it.

The only one who ignores part of the rules is you. I include both the rules from SM and RC in my considerations, and guess what: Those rules do not contradict each other! SM addresses the effects of a BGC in cases where a mage, a spirit or an enchanted object/person enters a BGC, while the rules to "Astral Hazing" in RC adress what happens if a mage casts a spell from outside a BGC at a person inside the BGC. To call this cristal clear statement in RC a "fluff sentence" is disingenuous.

The quality merely creates localized a BGC subject to all the normal rules of a background count.  And it's supposed to be a negative quality... but in actual pay it almost never is.

You mean just like the negative quality "In Dept" or "Day Job" that not only gives you additional BP's but also some extra money on top of it? Or like the negative Quality "Symbiosis", which gives you a lot of BP's and sometimes even a bonus on social skills the character uses inside the attuned area? Or like Neoteny that gives the character the advantage that enemies/guards underestimate them ("Oh, it's just a little girl..."). Or how about the negative quality "Thorns" that gives the character more damage during unarmed attacks? My point is that "Astral Hazing" is by no means the only negative quality that has an upside for the character.

[Falconer]

Two things I'm noticing... for someone who wasn't even sure how background counts operated and had to ask.   You're awful sure and convinced on their full fledged operation of how YOU think they should operate.

You may not like what I'm reporting to you... which is fine.   But telling me a black cat is white... does not change the fact that the rules say it is black.   The only published rules state sustained spells.


You can try and divine intent... but the actual rules only pertain to sustained spells or indirectly to all spells cast within the affected area by the effect of the reduced magic stat.   This came to a shock to a lot of us when this detail of background counts was first pointed out to us.   And a lot of us had to revise our opinion of them at that point... myself included.  When I first worked with BGC's I made the same mistake, until someone pointed out the exact wording and I had to admit I was doing it wrong.

After this we're merely repeating and engaged in a shouting match... your questions have been answered.  You may not like the answers... but you do as you see fit.

[Corgano]

Two things I'm noticing... for someone who wasn't even sure how background counts operated and had to ask.   You're awful sure and convinced on their full fledged operation of how YOU think they should operate.

You don't even realize that you're projecting your own actions and attitude onto me, do you? In this entire thread you have constantly been trying to tell me and others how BGC should work. And when I confronted you with the rules for the Astral Haze quality, you've first ignored it and then dismissed it as "fluff", even though I was citing part of the rules for this particular quality! 

Oh, and one other thing:
I've never said that I wasn't sure how BGC's work. My two questions were both in regard to something that the rules either don't adress (how fast does a mage notice that he's casting a spell into a BGC) or that can be interpreted in different ways with no objectively right or wrong answer (is the level of BGC added to the spells force to calculate the force of the Drain, or is it added directly to the force of the Drain).

You may not like what I'm reporting to you... which is fine.   But telling me a black cat is white... does not change the fact that the rules say it is black.   The only published rules state sustained spells.

So the rules for a quality, introduced in the "Runner Companion" rulebook doesn't count as rules? Why? Because you don't like what they say?

You can try and divine intent... but the actual rules only pertain to sustained spells or indirectly to all spells cast within the affected area by the effect of the reduced magic stat.   This came to a shock to a lot of us when this detail of background counts was first pointed out to us.   And a lot of us had to revise our opinion of them at that point... myself included.  When I first worked with BGC's I made the same mistake, until someone pointed out the exact wording and I had to admit I was doing it wrong.

But that's just it:
I would have absolutely no problem accepting that instant spells aren't affected by BGC when cast from the outside, IF you could point out some part of the rules that support your interpretation. But all you've done so far is to cite parts of the rules for BGC that don't adress spells that are being cast into a BGC from the outside, and instead address the issue of spells being cast within a BGC and what happens if a spirit, an active focus or an item/person enchanted with a sustained spell, walks into a BGC. And when I've pointed out part of the rules that seem to contradict your interpretation, instead of making a good case as to why those rules don't mean what I think they mean, you've simply dismissed them as "fluff".

your questions have been answered.  You may not like the answers... but you do as you see fit.

This whole discussion about whether a BGC weakens instant spells had nothing to do with my two questions. It wasn't even me who started this whole discussion, it was you, Falconer. 

[All4BigGuns]

You don't even realize that you're projecting your own actions and attitude onto me, do you? In this entire thread you have constantly been trying to tell me and others how BGC should work. And when I confronted you with the rules for the Astral Haze quality, you've first ignored it and then dismissed it as "fluff", even though I was citing part of the rules for this particular quality! 

Not to mention that he completely ignored where it was pointed out how he's contradicting himself.

RAW clearly states that only sustained spells are affected.   RAI is open to argument, but the clear writing provides no effect for a BGC on an instant combat spell like fireball entering it.

If you believe that so much, then why complain about Astral Hazing? Going by that, there is only the negative (healing spells--much better than first aid or natural--and "buff" spells are sustained).

I guess that he was proven wrong about it "not being negative" by how he views the "RAW" kept him from bothering to respond.

[Glyph]

The force of spells that are not pre-existing is not affected because background count affects the Magic rating and the Drain value.  In other words, a mage with a Magic of 6 casting a Force: 6 mana bolt will still be firing off a Force: 6 spell - only it will be with an effective Magic of 4 (2 less dice to roll for spellcasting, and any spell over Force: 4 does physical Drain), and the spell will have the Drain of a Force: 8 spell.

It is not sustained versus instant that is the determining factor - it is whether the spell was already in existence before the background count became a factor.  Someone attempting to cast increase reflexes in the middle of a background count would have the same penalties as someone attempting to cast fireball.

The description of astral hazing states: "This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at or in the vicinity of the character."  Pretty unambiguous.  Except that it leaves open the question of whether the mage suffers a lowered Magic (since the mage is not standing directly in the background count), or only the increased spell Drain.  I am tentatively leaning towards the second interpretation.

[Falconer]

The only reason I brought up the point to you Corgano was because it was something MANY of us got dead wrong and played wrong for a while... until someone pointed it out.   I know i argued the other side... until they pointed out the sentence and I admitted I was wrong.   Yes, I do admit when i get things wrong... but this isn't one of those cases.  It's out of a thread a few years back on here if you care to search-fu it.


You can take what you will... but there is only one way to read this stretch of rules.  The rules make no differentiation between spells cast into the area and spells entering the area... they're affected equally.   (I can cast a sustained spell from outside the background count into it... the rules for this are clear as the spell is sustained and affected).  If you wish to use a house rule.. that's your prerogative... but don't claim that you're representing the printed rules for BGC when the rules for BGC never once mention instant spells as being affected.  This one just isn't grey... I'm generally the first to make the arguments when an area is grey and give GM's maximum discretion.



And nothing I've said in this section is in contradiction with itself... no matter what you say.   My position is internally consistent and more importantly 100% consistent with the printed rulebook.


Glyph:
The problem is that the astral hazing does not say HOW it affects all of it... it immediately points the reader to use the NORMAL rules for BGC's.   There is no hard rules anywhere in any of that for it affecting instant spells.   The author of the quality simply used a simple sentence and was most likely under the exact same misunderstanding as many of the rest of us.   There are no special rules for astral hazing vs other BGC's anywhere in the book... that's why I say that sentence is fluff...   the quality invokes a BGC which functions the same as any other BGC.

[All4BigGuns]

The problem is that the astral hazing does not say HOW it affects all of it... it immediately points the reader to use the NORMAL rules for BGC's.   There is no hard rules anywhere in any of that for it affecting instant spells.   The author of the quality simply used a simple sentence and was most likely under the exact same misunderstanding as many of the rest of us.   There are no special rules for astral hazing vs other BGC's anywhere in the book... that's why I say that sentence is fluff...   the quality invokes a BGC which functions the same as any other BGC.

The bolded part combined with how you view the rules as not affecting "instant" spells is exactly why you and others are wrong about Astral Hazing not being negative. Since Combat spells are "instant" the character suffers full effect of the spell, while any healing spell (which is better than first aid or natural healing can get) and "buffing" spell--which are either sustained or sustained-until-permanent--gets reduced. So, boom, right there, it is negative and people gripe about the quality for no reason.

[Falconer]

All4BigGuns...
Yes... I am aware of this... but you take a high essence character... the radius is of the hazing is 6m  (roughly 20 feet).  For a 40' diameter around him far bigger than most rooms...  you get in an urban environment and it becomes very hard for an enemy mage not to be in the BGC in a building.   

Or you go the other way... and you keep the essence score low and your magical types stay more than 1m away from you.

So exactly how negative a quality it is is arguable.  It's one of those problematic 'negative' qualities which generally aren't.  If you value and regularly recieve friendly magic yeah... then it actually has some drawback... if not... it's just free BP and defense (even if that defense doesn't include the small subset of instant spells).

[All4BigGuns]

And the "defense" provided would be against those spells that get griped about--mental manipulations. The question is, if someone doesn't want their players using those spells, why would they use them against their players? (This is what I mean by holding oneself to the same standard as one's players).

Oh and high essence would generally mean Awakened, which means BIG ARSE drawback there. Low essence would be the ones people complain about, claiming it's supposedly "abuse".

Honestly, the fact that it's keeping the spells that can be sustained on you down is plenty negative. It is not "abuse" for the team mage to stay out of that radius and be able to use their combat spells to full effect, after all it is YOUR quality, not their's.