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Handling Equipment And Encumbrance

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Critias

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« Reply #30 on: <10-23-10/1357:34> »
Why not have folks work up two gear lists?  One "everyday" list (for any time they leave their apartment/house/gutter) and one "on a run" list (for every time they've had a chance to go home from a meet and gear up before a Run, or whatever)?

Because your idea of "if you own it, you carry it with you everywhere you go, all the time, no matter what" is pretty ridiculous, especially if it's meant to promote realism.  There are places in Seattle you don't go with weapons that can't be concealed, or armor that's obvious and restricted.  You're being silly and petty as a means of getting back at your players for their perceived silliness and pettiness, and no good comes from that.

I'm looking for ideas on how to handle gear, not judgement.  I don't really care that you think my idea of handling gear is "pretty ridiculous".  My reasoning for the way I'm thinking of handling gear is born out of circumstance.  It may be "silly and petty" to you, because well you're an ignorant ass who can't understand that not all GMs are blessed with perfect players that are willing to exert effort.  See, I can pass judgement too.  :)

I tried the whole separate gear list based on situation, except I couldn't force players to make the effort to manage it.  So I'm thinking of going with something that requires very little effort on their part.  Is it perfect? Of course not.  But it'll put the responsibility in their hands.  If they have a situation that requires them to be surreptitious or not stick out, then they should offload their gear (garbage, charity, or fence).  If they need the gear again, acquire it again.  Yes this is very crude, but it can't get any simpler for lazy players.  Besides, IMO it has the nice touch of portraying the disposable mentality of modern consumerism.
Yeah, okay.  Good luck with your train wreck of a game, then.  All I'm trying to tell you is that you've got more to worry about than encumbrance, given the attitude and tone you're showing concerning the direction this game is headed, your feelings towards your players, etc, etc.  If you don't want to hear it, fine.  You don't want to hear it. 
« Last Edit: <10-23-10/1406:43> by Critias »

Mäx

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« Reply #31 on: <10-23-10/1549:09> »
If they have a situation that requires them to be surreptitious or not stick out, then they should offload their gear (garbage, charity, or fence).  If they need the gear again, acquire it again.
So not only are you enforcing a rule that your runners have to carry all their illegal gear they own with them at all times, but your also enforcing a realistic world, meaning they cant go anywhere with that gear.
Okey, thats so far beyond bongers i cant even come up with a word to describe how crazy that is.

And really how hard is it to enforce a rule that players have to give you in writing the gear they're backing to a run/meet/trip to town/whatever, which would be a hell a lot more sensible way to handle gear.
Unless your playing with the laziest people in the world, it shouldn't be too much to ask of them, especially as they can just make a bunch of those lists in the first session and then use them for the rest of the campaing(updating when necessary)
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JM_Hardy

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« Reply #32 on: <10-23-10/2023:23> »
Why not have folks work up two gear lists?  One "everyday" list (for any time they leave their apartment/house/gutter) and one "on a run" list (for every time they've had a chance to go home from a meet and gear up before a Run, or whatever)?

Because your idea of "if you own it, you carry it with you everywhere you go, all the time, no matter what" is pretty ridiculous, especially if it's meant to promote realism.  There are places in Seattle you don't go with weapons that can't be concealed, or armor that's obvious and restricted.  You're being silly and petty as a means of getting back at your players for their perceived silliness and pettiness, and no good comes from that.

I'm looking for ideas on how to handle gear, not judgement.  I don't really care that you think my idea of handling gear is "pretty ridiculous".  My reasoning for the way I'm thinking of handling gear is born out of circumstance.  It may be "silly and petty" to you, because well you're an ignorant ass who can't understand that not all GMs are blessed with perfect players that are willing to exert effort.  See, I can pass judgement too.  :)

[snip]

What we have here is the difference between attacking actions and attacking a person. Major Doom, I can understand why you would not like being described as silly and petty, but those are Critias' opinions on your actions. Coming back and calling him an "ignorant ass," on the other hand, is a personal attack, which is forbidden by Rule 1.

I'm going to try moderating with a light touch for the time being since we haven't had too many problems so far, so at the moment this is just a warning. I hope no more action will be needed.

Jason H.
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Critias

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« Reply #33 on: <10-24-10/0302:28> »
While I understand a mod's gotta mod, as far as I'm concerned, no blood no foul.  He shared a problem, I offered advice and opinion, and he didn't like it.  That's life.  I hope his game goes better, but until he or his players acknowledge what I perceive as the much larger problem (when compared to encumbrance issues), I don't think they'll have a very good time.

I'm sorry if my comments weren't welcome, and/or were taken the wrong way.  I don't want to see anyone get into mod trouble over it, at any rate.

Major Doom

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« Reply #34 on: <10-24-10/1309:29> »
Easiest way is just to let them know that when they are on the street, you'll be making random Perception checks and will make more Perception checks for more crowded areas. You don't even have to tell them that the chance of their items will be spotted, just the fact that they know the world is watching will make them plenty paranoid. The checks don't even have to be real. If they tell you they're going to the mall, just look up at them and roll some dice - doesn't matter what the results are - and give them that knowing smile.

Rules don't dictate how the characters see the setting, YOU do.

Yeah I like this idea of inducing paranoia, since it's what I'm aiming at.  I've entertained the idea that I'll ask the players to roll initiative on random occasions where no combat is even supposed to occur (unless the PCs create such a situation), keeping them on their toes once in a while.


Yeah, okay.  Good luck with your train wreck of a game, then.  All I'm trying to tell you is that you've got more to worry about than encumbrance, given the attitude and tone you're showing concerning the direction this game is headed, your feelings towards your players, etc, etc.  If you don't want to hear it, fine.  You don't want to hear it.  

Thanks Dr. Phil, I'll be sure to keep your psychoanalytical comments in mind about my "train wreck of game" since a single plausible ruling is "silly and petty".  That's real stellar support.

So not only are you enforcing a rule that your runners have to carry all their illegal gear they own with them at all times, but your also enforcing a realistic world, meaning they cant go anywhere with that gear.
Okey, thats so far beyond bongers i cant even come up with a word to describe how crazy that is.

And really how hard is it to enforce a rule that players have to give you in writing the gear they're backing to a run/meet/trip to town/whatever, which would be a hell a lot more sensible way to handle gear.
Unless your playing with the laziest people in the world, it shouldn't be too much to ask of them, especially as they can just make a bunch of those lists in the first session and then use them for the rest of the campaing(updating when necessary)

I don't think you have been paying attention to what my circumstance is for making such a ruling.  But it's okay, just keep pressing that Report to moderator link on my posts and you don't have to worry about my original issue.


What we have here is the difference between attacking actions and attacking a person. Major Doom, I can understand why you would not like being described as silly and petty, but those are Critias' opinions on your actions. Coming back and calling him an "ignorant ass," on the other hand, is a personal attack, which is forbidden by Rule 1.

I'm going to try moderating with a light touch for the time being since we haven't had too many problems so far, so at the moment this is just a warning. I hope no more action will be needed.

Jason H.


Yeah awesome moderation here buddy.  Just exploit two words I said and ignore the entire thread's context.


While I understand a mod's gotta mod, as far as I'm concerned, no blood no foul.  He shared a problem, I offered advice and opinion, and he didn't like it.  That's life.  I hope his game goes better, but until he or his players acknowledge what I perceive as the much larger problem (when compared to encumbrance issues), I don't think they'll have a very good time.

I'm sorry if my comments weren't welcome, and/or were taken the wrong way.  I don't want to see anyone get into mod trouble over it, at any rate.

Again, thanks for the psychoanalysis Dr. Freud.  Your opine and kitsch remarks on the outcome of my game due to a single ruling is very enlightening.  Aside from calling you an ignorant ass (Hey mod, oops I did it again  ;D), which is a remark I still continue to stand by, following your continued snide and haughty comments since I did not pass any claim against you.
« Last Edit: <10-24-10/1311:20> by Major Doom »
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Critias

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« Reply #35 on: <10-24-10/1642:04> »
Doom, I'm not sure where the chip on your shoulder's coming from, but if you take a second to reread this thread you'll see that you're outright insulting your players, calling them lazy, and just generally sounding very confrontational towards them (not only towards folks who post in this thread).  RPG's don't work very well that way, with a few slapstick comedy body-count games notwithstanding (Paranoia or something is fun when played "us vs. them," but most RPG's just kind of fall apart in that sort of atmosphere).

When I "opine" on your game, it's not necessarily because of your idea regarding equipment lists, but rather the attitude you're showing around that idea.  The reasons you give for it, the justification you're using for it, and the feelings of antipathy you seem to show towards your gamers.  That is something that I think should be of more concern to you than some "if it's written on your sheet, you carry it with you everywhere" ruling. 

You obviously disagree, and are certainly free to do so, but it'd sure be nice if you could do so with a little less of a chip on your shoulder.  Again, I'm sorry if my comments are being taken in a bad way -- and they obviously are -- but I hope, for the sake of your game, you and your gamers can reach some sort of consensus here and manage to get along a little better.

Doc Chaos

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« Reply #36 on: <10-25-10/0700:17> »
Why in gods name would you want to play with people you obviously can't agree with in the first place? o_O
That's a good question, and a philosophical one too.  But let me ask you this, have you ever ran a game where everyone got along and there were no arguments or complaints?

Yes, after we sat down and openly discussed every point and reached either agreement or compromise.
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FastJack

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« Reply #37 on: <10-25-10/0831:29> »
Actually, I'm going to have to agree with Doc on this one. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had serious arguments (not rules debates, but heated name-calling) and people that didn't get along in my 15+ years of gaming.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #38 on: <10-25-10/0953:33> »
I've seen both sides of this argument. I've been the GM needing to slap a "ALL SPELLS FOR THE DAY MUST BE TURNED IN TO ME BEFORE THE GAME BEGINS OR YOU GOT NUTHIN" groups, and I have seen GMs that insist "your character is going to only get THIS list of spells cause I rolled them for you!" retentive actions.

Doom is in between this. I know players who will exploit the I am carrying my Big Bad Colossal Weapon of Doom (TM) even if I am wearing shorts and a tank top... In Church, after passing 3 metal detectors and 14 check points with 7 strip searchs and nobody see it! crap!

Doom has a right to be a bit pissed at his players if they won't honor a simple request like list your gear that you are taking when not on a mission. Realisticly there is always a time when you're going to get caught with your pants down! ;)
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John Schmidt

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« Reply #39 on: <10-25-10/1132:43> »
Major Doom...warning two.

Critias...warning one.

Bans are forthcoming if this persists.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

Major Doom

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« Reply #40 on: <10-25-10/2203:02> »
Doom, I'm not sure where the chip on your shoulder's coming from, but if you take a second to reread this thread you'll see that you're outright insulting your players, calling them lazy, and just generally sounding very confrontational towards them (not only towards folks who post in this thread).  RPG's don't work very well that way, with a few slapstick comedy body-count games notwithstanding (Paranoia or something is fun when played "us vs. them," but most RPG's just kind of fall apart in that sort of atmosphere).

When I "opine" on your game, it's not necessarily because of your idea regarding equipment lists, but rather the attitude you're showing around that idea.  The reasons you give for it, the justification you're using for it, and the feelings of antipathy you seem to show towards your gamers.  That is something that I think should be of more concern to you than some "if it's written on your sheet, you carry it with you everywhere" ruling. 

You obviously disagree, and are certainly free to do so, but it'd sure be nice if you could do so with a little less of a chip on your shoulder.  Again, I'm sorry if my comments are being taken in a bad way -- and they obviously are -- but I hope, for the sake of your game, you and your gamers can reach some sort of consensus here and manage to get along a little better.

As I explained in my previous posts, I have a circumstance with some of the players, but not all.  I've spoken to them about it, several times mind you, but I can't control how they handle gear.  Unfortunately they tend to object quite temperamentally where they believe the situation should benefit them, even though the PCs decision resulted in gear mismanagement (ie: lost, destruction, theft, etc.)

You can't just exploit one single game ruling I am seriously considering utilizing and claim my game will be a trainwreck.  I've explained the facts to you (and to other members) as objectively as possible, yet you claimed my single game ruling was silly and petty and I have more serious issues forthcoming.  To me that was subjective opinion on your hand, naively attempting to predict the end result of something you do not have first hand experience with.  My vocalization was not an expression of having a chip on my shoulders, but of frustration, because I have tried your, and the other members' advice, in the past.  So I appreciate your candor in apologizing, but you have to maintain an open-mind on the situation I have.


Yes, after we sat down and openly discussed every point and reached either agreement or compromise.

Well I've done this before with very little leeway on part of the players.  I can try again and hope for a new outcome, but that's the definition of insanity.



I've seen both sides of this argument. I've been the GM needing to slap a "ALL SPELLS FOR THE DAY MUST BE TURNED IN TO ME BEFORE THE GAME BEGINS OR YOU GOT NUTHIN" groups, and I have seen GMs that insist "your character is going to only get THIS list of spells cause I rolled them for you!" retentive actions.

Doom is in between this. I know players who will exploit the I am carrying my Big Bad Colossal Weapon of Doom (TM) even if I am wearing shorts and a tank top... In Church, after passing 3 metal detectors and 14 check points with 7 strip searchs and nobody see it! crap!

Doom has a right to be a bit pissed at his players if they won't honor a simple request like list your gear that you are taking when not on a mission. Realisticly there is always a time when you're going to get caught with your pants down! ;)

Thanks, at least someone has an understanding of my plight concerning this issue.


Major Doom...warning two.

Critias...warning one.

Bans are forthcoming if this persists.


Seriously?  Why even have a forum, if your finger is just hovering over the proverbial ban key?  Or will you ban me for questioning the admins handling of the situation?

And by the way, who was immature enough to report this thread to the admins, where they swooped in with tyrannical assumptions to ban?
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FastJack

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« Reply #41 on: <10-25-10/2216:36> »
And by the way, who was immature enough to report this thread to the admins, where they swooped in with tyrannical assumptions to ban?
Seriously? Do you really think it took a report to see this thread? Trust me, the forum may be busy, but it's not that busy that the moderators would have "lost" this thread in the shuffle.

This forum is far from tyrannical. And they are NOT ban-happy around here. In fact, I'd say that you (and Critias) did push the envelope for the first time in the six weeks since this place started up. So, with pushing the envelope comes the moderators' establishing the boundary.

Now, stick to the subject and leave the name calling to other forums.

voydangel

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« Reply #42 on: <10-25-10/2234:14> »
Doom, I'm not sure where the chip on your shoulder's coming from, but if you take a second to reread this thread you'll see that you're outright insulting your players, calling them lazy, and just generally sounding very confrontational towards them (not only towards folks who post in this thread).  RPG's don't work very well that way, with a few slapstick comedy body-count games notwithstanding (Paranoia or something is fun when played "us vs. them," but most RPG's just kind of fall apart in that sort of atmosphere).

When I "opine" on your game, it's not necessarily because of your idea regarding equipment lists, but rather the attitude you're showing around that idea.  The reasons you give for it, the justification you're using for it, and the feelings of antipathy you seem to show towards your gamers.  That is something that I think should be of more concern to you than some "if it's written on your sheet, you carry it with you everywhere" ruling.  

You obviously disagree, and are certainly free to do so, but it'd sure be nice if you could do so with a little less of a chip on your shoulder.  Again, I'm sorry if my comments are being taken in a bad way -- and they obviously are -- but I hope, for the sake of your game, you and your gamers can reach some sort of consensus here and manage to get along a little better.

As I explained in my previous posts, I have a circumstance with some of the players, but not all.  I've spoken to them about it, several times mind you, but I can't control how they handle gear.  Unfortunately they tend to object quite temperamentally where they believe the situation should benefit them, even though the PCs decision resulted in gear mismanagement (ie: lost, destruction, theft, etc.)

You can't just exploit one single game ruling I am seriously considering utilizing and claim my game will be a trainwreck.  I've explained the facts to you (and to other members) as objectively as possible, yet you claimed my single game ruling was silly and petty and I have more serious issues forthcoming.  To me that was subjective opinion on your hand, naively attempting to predict the end result of something you do not have first hand experience with.  My vocalization was not an expression of having a chip on my shoulders, but of frustration, because I have tried your, and the other members' advice, in the past.  So I appreciate your candor in apologizing, but you have to maintain an open-mind on the situation I have.


Yes, after we sat down and openly discussed every point and reached either agreement or compromise.

Well I've done this before with very little leeway on part of the players.  I can try again and hope for a new outcome, but that's the definition of insanity.



I've seen both sides of this argument. I've been the GM needing to slap a "ALL SPELLS FOR THE DAY MUST BE TURNED IN TO ME BEFORE THE GAME BEGINS OR YOU GOT NUTHIN" groups, and I have seen GMs that insist "your character is going to only get THIS list of spells cause I rolled them for you!" retentive actions.

Doom is in between this. I know players who will exploit the I am carrying my Big Bad Colossal Weapon of Doom (TM) even if I am wearing shorts and a tank top... In Church, after passing 3 metal detectors and 14 check points with 7 strip searchs and nobody see it! crap!

Doom has a right to be a bit pissed at his players if they won't honor a simple request like list your gear that you are taking when not on a mission. Realisticly there is always a time when you're going to get caught with your pants down! ;)

Thanks, at least someone has an understanding of my plight concerning this issue.

First, I would like to state that I have been in your shoes. I've had that guy/group. In fact I shared it with the class in the "Gaming Horror stories" thread. It sucks. However, I must agree with Doc & FJ about the fact that if it really is that bad, and you really can't resolve the issue after repeated attempts, and you really can't seem to get it all working (without having to add new limitations and rules about gear), then perhaps it's time to switch groups. Or possibly switch games (heaven forbid) to something that doesn't need that kind of strict bookkeeping that they so obviously don't want to deal with.

Also, I would like to note that Critias' assessment of your ideas to add in new rules and restrictions and whatnot about lists of gear and other various things is fairly right on. He may not have said it in the nicest way, but I think what he was trying to get at was that there's a deeper issue here that needs to be resolved, and by adding new house rules into the mix, the only thing that will happen is more paperwork and more work on your end of the table, or perhaps the players resentment will rise, etc. None of which are going to help the problem or the gaming group.

Now, that being said, I have a suggestion for you that may help. It didn't with my problem player back in the day, but all the other players really liked it and I have been doing it ever since that trial period back in the day. And honestly, it's not even anything really special or out of the ordinary. Here it goes - you ready?

Role play out the scenes where they enter new buildings, bars, malls, complexes, churches, back ally pit fighting clubs, gang HQ's, and any and every meeting with a Johnson, or any contact with a loyalty rating less than about 3 or 4. Actually describe what the security is like, what scans they are going through, and how tough it really is to sneak a weapon into a place that doesn't want weapons there. This does a few things, all of which are good for a game (imo). First, it increases the realism, which a lot of people like, some not so much, but in this case, it does so in a very nice manner that even "anti-realism" people can appreciate, modified to fit their play style of course. Second, it shows the characters a bit of "you're not the only players in town", which is a good theme for the game, and often a good lesson to learn early in a characters SRing career. third and finally, it gives you, the GM, an easy way out for the issues where players say they snuck something into a place. they obviously didn't say they had it  on them if you never found it with all the scans and security, and you have a really good leg to stand on when you tell them they don't have the minigun with them and the AAA yakuza sushi bar johnson meeting. On the flip side of the same argument, if you decide to have them make lists of something similar, any "forgotten" item can be explained away as "you figured you couldn't get it past security so you left it at home." Everyone wins. And by everyone, I mean the game and the group as a whole.

Major Doom...warning two.

Critias...warning one.

Bans are forthcoming if this persists.


Seriously?  Why even have a forum, if your finger is just hovering over the proverbial ban key?  Or will you ban me for questioning the admins handling of the situation?

And by the way, who was immature enough to report this thread to the admins, where they swooped in with tyrannical assumptions to ban?

Personally, I think we have a really good, relaxed and pretty chill forum here, and the Mods are doing an excellent job. I doubt that anyone bothered to push the "report" button, and more likely than not, one of the mods was just surfing the forum and read your post because - believe it or not - the mods here are gamers like us, and are interested in contributing, participating, and reading what goes on here. If for no other reason than.... it's their job! So, much as I can see your frustration here, if you're going to have an attitude like that, I'd be surprised if your account lasts much longer - even considering how laid back the mods are around here.

Now, a bit of advice, and I say this with all the respect and friendliness in the world:

Chill out. We're all friends here, and just because someone doesn't like your ideas, or - heaven forbid - comes off as a bug ugly jerk face, the best thing to do is play it cool and let it go, we're all here to enjoy the game and the community. Sometimes it's just not worth stepping up to the perceived threat/challenge/insult. Really.

And speaking as an (ex) forum moderator: Lipping off at the mods is a bad idea. Trust me.
« Last Edit: <10-25-10/2237:21> by voydangel »
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Qemuel

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« Reply #43 on: <10-25-10/2246:58> »
And by the way, who was immature enough to report this thread to the admins, where they swooped in with tyrannical assumptions to ban?
Seriously? Do you really think it took a report to see this thread? Trust me, the forum may be busy, but it's not that busy that the moderators would have "lost" this thread in the shuffle.

This forum is far from tyrannical. And they are NOT ban-happy around here. In fact, I'd say that you (and Critias) did push the envelope for the first time in the six weeks since this place started up. So, with pushing the envelope comes the moderators' establishing the boundary.

Now, stick to the subject and leave the name calling to other forums.

+1

I was genuinely shocked to see name calling on this board, even if it was meant to be in jest (complete with emoticons) or simply to make a point.  I've seen a huge degree of maturity here in and out of arguments, disagreements, banter, and heated opinions.

So getting back to the topic.  Doom, it looks like you've mostly made up your mind on how you are going to handle this with your players.  Did you have other options that you were weighing?  Have you had a chance to talk about your ruling with the players yet?  If so, what was their reaction?


Edit:  and I really like Voydangel's idea of describing security in painstaking detail.  If they have something illegal on them, it should be apparent that they would have to let you know.  Otherwise, as he suggested, they left it at home.
« Last Edit: <10-25-10/2257:36> by Qemuel »

John Schmidt

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« Reply #44 on: <10-26-10/0957:00> »
First, I would like to say that Critias had the testicular fortitude to apologize for his remarks and I respect that a great deal.

Lets recap,

Major Doom calls Critias a derogatory name is warned about that. When next we see Major Doom he once more uses that same derogatory name and then seems to dare the moderators (Hey mod, oops I did it again  ;D) to take action.

Major Doom asks, “Or will you ban me for questioning the admins handling of the situation?”
Yet if we go back we see Major Doom’s initial response to his warning, “Yeah awesome moderation here buddy.  Just exploit two words I said and ignore the entire thread's context.”
I don’t see your question about our handling of the situation. What I do see is less than polite and a statement aimed at being provocative.

As in your game we have rules, the rules are stated up front and clearly. You have been warned…twice. This is not a single individual’s sandbox, we want =everyone= to be able to express their opinions and ask questions in a FRIENDLY atmosphere. For those people who are able to abide by the rules we welcome them and hope that they have a great time here. For those who cannot follow the rules we can and will remove them for the sake of the community.

It is my sincere hope that everyone will abide by the rules.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.