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Handling Equipment And Encumbrance

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Major Doom

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« Reply #15 on: <10-20-10/0827:38> »
"if your character has it written down then it is on his/her person at all times, otherwise the character doesn't have it".
You must be running your game purely in the barrens or one in one of the feral cities(Chicago,Lagos etc.) if you just allow your players to walk aroun heavily armored packing tons of heat.
The meets with the Johnsons must be pretty intresting, what with the players packing military grade heat in to a peaceful meet. 

Actually I'm going to be running it in Seattle metroplex as whole.  My reasoning behind the decision is from experience with some of the group members being lazy about keeping track of gear, argumentative when an unfavorable decision is made based on their absurd actions (ie: sleeping in a public park at night and getting robbed), also to reduce bookkeeping across the board, since there are just too many toys in SR.  This decision also has the nice twist that it will be the player's responsibility to decide what gear they really need.


Frankly, I don't really care about the players opine on this matter ....

I really don't see a way to succeed with this attitude. There's no way to resolve differences in expectations without reaching an agreement.

Such attitude comes with dealing with petty, irresponsible, and overly lazy players that expect to exploit fantasy without an iota of realism.  You sir may be lucky as to have reasonable players who understand to work with the GM and ground some concepts in reality, I unfortunately do not have such luxury.
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Bradd

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« Reply #16 on: <10-20-10/1931:27> »
Why do you play with them, then? I'm guessing these are friends who you like socially, but have trouble with in gaming? Happens a lot. The trouble is, if they won't work with you, they just won't work with you. There's no way to force people into accepting your rules. Even if they superficially accept it, they'll still rebel and give you the kind of grief you're having now.

Have you considered building sympathy by sharing the GM job? Or going on strike?

Critias

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« Reply #17 on: <10-21-10/0006:37> »
Such attitude comes with dealing with petty, irresponsible, and overly lazy players that expect to exploit fantasy without an iota of realism.  You sir may be lucky as to have reasonable players who understand to work with the GM and ground some concepts in reality, I unfortunately do not have such luxury.
There's something much more important than encumbrance and equipment lists at play here.  You're on your way towards a pretty unhealthy relationship with your players, which will lead to an "players vs. GM" game, which will lead to friendships being genuinely threatened (if they aren't already).  If I were you, I'd invite your players to read this thread so that they can see what you think about them.

If they react to it in a manner that shows concern over what they've done to make you think this poorly of them, perhaps a friendship (which should be of primary importance) and a stable gaming group (which should be secondary) can be salvaged, and things can roll on towards Funtown and the clatter of dice.

If they get pissed at you for talking about them this way behind their back, maybe it's time to call it quits;  you don't seem to think much of them, and they probably wouldn't think much of you.  

You're not encouraging realism if you've got characters that don't own anything but what they carry around with them everywhere they go.  In the short term, that can be a fun character concept (and one I've started with, more than once), but in the long run characters should have spare weapons, extra ammunition, obvious armor they don't wear everywhere, changes of clothing, first aid kits, electronics, and all sorts of other stuff that it isn't "a game concept grounded in reality" for them to be carrying with them to a fancy meet with a Johnson in Downtown.

You're being just as unrealistic as they are, and as the GM it's not your job to go "tit for tat" like that, anyways.
« Last Edit: <10-21-10/0008:37> by Critias »

Mäx

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« Reply #18 on: <10-21-10/0243:28> »
"if your character has it written down then it is on his/her person at all times, otherwise the character doesn't have it".
You must be running your game purely in the barrens or one in one of the feral cities(Chicago,Lagos etc.) if you just allow your players to walk aroun heavily armored packing tons of heat.
The meets with the Johnsons must be pretty intresting, what with the players packing military grade heat in to a peaceful meet.  
Actually I'm going to be running it in Seattle metroplex as whole.
Then i guess the only player surviving to end of first session is the pure face(if the team has one and he's smart enought to stay far away from the rest of the team) as everyone else most likely ends up dead in a fire fight with Knight Errant and possibly military if they fare too well against KE.

That kind of rule might work in D&D, but it doesn't work in Shadowrun.
You just can not walk down the main street of Seattle carrying a ton of illegal military grade weapons, while wearing "heavy" armor.
All of which is standard equipment for shadow runners.
« Last Edit: <10-21-10/0245:13> by Mäx »
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Doc Chaos

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« Reply #19 on: <10-21-10/0258:21> »
Why in gods name would you want to play with people you obviously can't agree with in the first place? o_O
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Usda Beph

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« Reply #20 on: <10-22-10/1208:54> »
There has to be a area of handwavium. Does Usda have cloths? Yes. where are they in his home... mostly but he's probably have something to change into after a run. Does he have grenades? Yes.Does he always carry them? No.

Doom asks us before we even begin running what do you have with you & do you want to buy anything before you go? I have all my gear on the sheet for when we're running. Anytime else equipment is situational, I am going back to Full body FFBA so I can wear it under some loose fitting cloths! As long as I have my fists I'm armed but in Seattle... on the streets... You just have to be careful!
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Major Doom

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« Reply #21 on: <10-22-10/1323:00> »
Why do you play with them, then? I'm guessing these are friends who you like socially, but have trouble with in gaming? Happens a lot. The trouble is, if they won't work with you, they just won't work with you. There's no way to force people into accepting your rules. Even if they superficially accept it, they'll still rebel and give you the kind of grief you're having now.

Have you considered building sympathy by sharing the GM job? Or going on strike?

Yes majority of the players are kith, and I've played RPGs with them for over a decade.  I'm not trying to have the players accept my rules, but attempting to alleviate the necessary micromanagement of gear to focus more on enjoying the game along with other inherent concepts of SR.  I have worked with them in the past (concerning gear and encumbrance), which they applauded me on the idea of Carried Gear and Adventure Gear when I ran World Of Darkness, but unfortunately I couldn't manage their lack of organization which resulted in arguments and complaints when a situation would arise, such as getting robbed or character killed, and players declaring that their adventure gear did not have certain valued items so it should be safe and not lost.

As for the GM job, I took up because these fellow kith have run games before but have a tendency to just stop running it for no reason.  Games would run a few game session, gain steam, and then just dropped dead.  So if I go on strike, then there will be no gaming at all.


There's something much more important than encumbrance and equipment lists at play here.  You're on your way towards a pretty unhealthy relationship with your players, which will lead to an "players vs. GM" game, which will lead to friendships being genuinely threatened (if they aren't already).  If I were you, I'd invite your players to read this thread so that they can see what you think about them.

If they react to it in a manner that shows concern over what they've done to make you think this poorly of them, perhaps a friendship (which should be of primary importance) and a stable gaming group (which should be secondary) can be salvaged, and things can roll on towards Funtown and the clatter of dice.

If they get pissed at you for talking about them this way behind their back, maybe it's time to call it quits;  you don't seem to think much of them, and they probably wouldn't think much of you. 

You're not encouraging realism if you've got characters that don't own anything but what they carry around with them everywhere they go.  In the short term, that can be a fun character concept (and one I've started with, more than once), but in the long run characters should have spare weapons, extra ammunition, obvious armor they don't wear everywhere, changes of clothing, first aid kits, electronics, and all sorts of other stuff that it isn't "a game concept grounded in reality" for them to be carrying with them to a fancy meet with a Johnson in Downtown.

You're being just as unrealistic as they are, and as the GM it's not your job to go "tit for tat" like that, anyways.

My players already know my view and opinion.  I've talked to them, encouraged them, vocalized concerns, but alas there is no remedy for player laziness.  In fact, among the three kith whom have GMed games before, they never took the time to work with players on a game.  I've taken up a hands on approach and got them involved in my ideas and tried to work out any issues, but I get resistance because their mentality is "The GM is the enemy".

For example, when I ran World of Darkness, one of the players was a vampire.  His character was shot, but in the middle of combat he attempted to use a vampiric power that requires no distractions with the target.  I ruled that since his character was shot, it's considered a distraction.  He, and the rest of the group, argued that being shot is not a distraction because a vampire reacts to distractions differently than a normal mortal.  Eventually the player moved on, but needless to say, they argued with me on something that was a sound and factual judgement on my part.


Then i guess the only player surviving to end of first session is the pure face(if the team has one and he's smart enought to stay far away from the rest of the team) as everyone else most likely ends up dead in a fire fight with Knight Errant and possibly military if they fare too well against KE.

That kind of rule might work in D&D, but it doesn't work in Shadowrun.
You just can not walk down the main street of Seattle carrying a ton of illegal military grade weapons, while wearing "heavy" armor.
All of which is standard equipment for shadow runners.

My theme for the game I'm running is "dystopian paranoia".  It's the players job to survive and overcome the challenges I'm planning on deploying.  As I read from Runner's Companion, Runner's Haven, and Seattle 2072, a Shadowrunner has to be paranoid.  One of the challenges the players have to deal with is gear management, including the responsibility to decide what gear do they really need.  Unfortunately, due to past experience with majority of the group they tend to overlook such a task as insignificant because they expect to have access to all gear, as long as they have the funds, but without the responsibility of encumbrance and tracking.  So if their PCs get robbed or killed (due to their actions), they fret.  Which is what I was looking to tackle with ideas from SR Forums.  I have one idea as I mentioned it, which I think is fair and reasonable as far as simplifying gear and encumbrance, so focus on the other aspects of the game aren't lost.


Why in gods name would you want to play with people you obviously can't agree with in the first place? o_O
That's a good question, and a philosophical one too.  But let me ask you this, have you ever ran a game where everyone got along and there were no arguments or complaints?


There has to be a area of handwavium. Does Usda have cloths? Yes. where are they in his home... mostly but he's probably have something to change into after a run. Does he have grenades? Yes.Does he always carry them? No.

Doom asks us before we even begin running what do you have with you & do you want to buy anything before you go? I have all my gear on the sheet for when we're running. Anytime else equipment is situational, I am going back to Full body FFBA so I can wear it under some loose fitting cloths! As long as I have my fists I'm armed but in Seattle... on the streets... You just have to be careful!

So what do you say to a player that has their character go on a run, doesn't write down or mention that they brought their grenades, then declares they are tossing grenades in middle of combat?  What do you say if the player continues to press the issue that since they are going on a run, it should be automatic that they brought the grenades?

This is one situation I have experienced, hence why I'm thinking of sticking to my original idea of "if it's on your character sheet, it's on you at all times".  But I'm also looking for ideas gear management, which why I'm asking from the forum community.
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Critias

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« Reply #22 on: <10-22-10/1339:39> »
Why not have folks work up two gear lists?  One "everyday" list (for any time they leave their apartment/house/gutter) and one "on a run" list (for every time they've had a chance to go home from a meet and gear up before a Run, or whatever)?

Because your idea of "if you own it, you carry it with you everywhere you go, all the time, no matter what" is pretty ridiculous, especially if it's meant to promote realism.  There are places in Seattle you don't go with weapons that can't be concealed, or armor that's obvious and restricted.  You're being silly and petty as a means of getting back at your players for their perceived silliness and pettiness, and no good comes from that.

FastJack

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« Reply #23 on: <10-22-10/1401:53> »
Try using Concealablity as a means to promote what's on them as an "everyday" item. If they concealability of an item (including bonuses from longcoats/holsters/etc.) is zero or less, you can say they carry it on them at all times. If it's above zero, let them know that they may be noticed carrying it by the average person on the street.

For instance, your average 'Runner will be able to carry a Heavy Pistol by tucking it in his waistband and wearing a shirt (Hvy Pistol's got a Concealability of 0). But if he wants to carry a machine pistol, he'd be better off wearing a lined coat (grants -2 to the Machine Pistol's Concealability of 2).

House rule: If they are carrying more than one of any class of item (light pistol, heavy pistol, grenade, etc.), add a +1 concealability for every item over the first. A guy with a grenade in his coat pocket has a concealability of 0 to notice it. If he's got 5 grenades stashed on him, he'll have a concealability of 5. Likewise a guy with 2 light pistols would have a -1 Concealability rather than the normal -2. This would prevent them from carrying twelve grenades and four heavy pistols.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #24 on: <10-22-10/1449:13> »
Quote
So what do you say to a player that has their character go on a run, doesn't write down or mention that they brought their grenades, then declares they are tossing grenades in middle of combat?  What do you say if the player continues to press the issue that since they are going on a run, it should be automatic that they brought the grenades?

This is one situation I have experienced, hence why I'm thinking of sticking to my original idea of "if it's on your character sheet, it's on you at all times".  But I'm also looking for ideas gear management, which why I'm asking from the forum community.
Well as with how I figure Doom will handle it, If I didn't say I brought my Grenades they are safely stashed in the strong box back at my house. If they are not wrote down then I MUST have left them at the crime mall! If they aren't on the sheet they obviously forgot them.

What it boils down to is you are the GM, If you don't inforce the rules YOU want followed, why should the players follow them? At the beginning of the session ask for the players to list what they are bringing & don't start the game till its done. They'll piss and moan the first few times but they will have to learn that it's kinda hard to carry a XXL Panther and 400 rounds unseen.

Or have the Po Po pull them over with the 5th MarDiv as back up and arrest them for trafficing illegal arms/equipment/etc.

I had to drop a nuke on my CBT players before cause they couldn't understand the simple request to stop bringing only 100 ton monsters to the table!

Honestly you aren't asking that much of the players! Yes still allow some hand wavium room but if they try to throw a 7th HE grenade and only brought 6... Well they need to switch to frag! :-*
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FastJack

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« Reply #25 on: <10-22-10/1458:40> »
Jayne Cobb: Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

Codac

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« Reply #26 on: <10-22-10/1718:26> »
Jayne Cobb: Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

Heh I'm pretty sure that quote comes up in every session we play.
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The Doomed One

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« Reply #27 on: <10-22-10/1721:31> »
Jayne Cobb: Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

Heh I'm pretty sure that quote comes up in every session we play.
I think there was one where it didn't... maybe
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Major Doom

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« Reply #28 on: <10-23-10/1117:52> »
Why not have folks work up two gear lists?  One "everyday" list (for any time they leave their apartment/house/gutter) and one "on a run" list (for every time they've had a chance to go home from a meet and gear up before a Run, or whatever)?

Because your idea of "if you own it, you carry it with you everywhere you go, all the time, no matter what" is pretty ridiculous, especially if it's meant to promote realism.  There are places in Seattle you don't go with weapons that can't be concealed, or armor that's obvious and restricted.  You're being silly and petty as a means of getting back at your players for their perceived silliness and pettiness, and no good comes from that.

I'm looking for ideas on how to handle gear, not judgement.  I don't really care that you think my idea of handling gear is "pretty ridiculous".  My reasoning for the way I'm thinking of handling gear is born out of circumstance.  It may be "silly and petty" to you, because well you're an ignorant ass who can't understand that not all GMs are blessed with perfect players that are willing to exert effort.  See, I can pass judgement too.  :)

I tried the whole separate gear list based on situation, except I couldn't force players to make the effort to manage it.  So I'm thinking of going with something that requires very little effort on their part.  Is it perfect? Of course not.  But it'll put the responsibility in their hands.  If they have a situation that requires them to be surreptitious or not stick out, then they should offload their gear (garbage, charity, or fence).  If they need the gear again, acquire it again.  Yes this is very crude, but it can't get any simpler for lazy players.  Besides, IMO it has the nice touch of portraying the disposable mentality of modern consumerism.


Try using Concealablity as a means to promote what's on them as an "everyday" item. If they concealability of an item (including bonuses from longcoats/holsters/etc.) is zero or less, you can say they carry it on them at all times. If it's above zero, let them know that they may be noticed carrying it by the average person on the street.

For instance, your average 'Runner will be able to carry a Heavy Pistol by tucking it in his waistband and wearing a shirt (Hvy Pistol's got a Concealability of 0). But if he wants to carry a machine pistol, he'd be better off wearing a lined coat (grants -2 to the Machine Pistol's Concealability of 2).

Yes I will be using the concealability rules.  But I'm aiming to run a paranoid and survivalist themed game.  I know it's a harsh way of portraying SR, but it will sate the players' blood lust.


Well as with how I figure Doom will handle it, If I didn't say I brought my Grenades they are safely stashed in the strong box back at my house. If they are not wrote down then I MUST have left them at the crime mall! If they aren't on the sheet they obviously forgot them.

What it boils down to is you are the GM, If you don't inforce the rules YOU want followed, why should the players follow them? At the beginning of the session ask for the players to list what they are bringing & don't start the game till its done. They'll piss and moan the first few times but they will have to learn that it's kinda hard to carry a XXL Panther and 400 rounds unseen.

Or have the Po Po pull them over with the 5th MarDiv as back up and arrest them for trafficing illegal arms/equipment/etc.

I had to drop a nuke on my CBT players before cause they couldn't understand the simple request to stop bringing only 100 ton monsters to the table!

Honestly you aren't asking that much of the players! Yes still allow some hand wavium room but if they try to throw a 7th HE grenade and only brought 6... Well they need to switch to frag! :-*

I do enforce the rules, which is why the players sulk.  But it doesn't stop them from making absurd statements that certain items should be automatically be available.  My new idea for handling gear is to mitigate the absurd claims, or at least minimize it.  But I'm still looking for ideas to make it as close to ideal as possible, that's why I posted this question.
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FastJack

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« Reply #29 on: <10-23-10/1132:30> »
Yes I will be using the concealability rules.  But I'm aiming to run a paranoid and survivalist themed game.  I know it's a harsh way of portraying SR, but it will sate the players' blood lust.
Easiest way is just to let them know that when they are on the street, you'll be making random Perception checks and will make more Perception checks for more crowded areas. You don't even have to tell them that the chance of their items will be spotted, just the fact that they know the world is watching will make them plenty paranoid. The checks don't even have to be real. If they tell you they're going to the mall, just look up at them and roll some dice - doesn't matter what the results are - and give them that knowing smile.

Rules don't dictate how the characters see the setting, YOU do.