NEWS

laser weapons yay/nay?

  • 43 Replies
  • 13234 Views

WellsIDidIt

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
« Reply #30 on: (22:28:08/10-17-12) »
Quote
And I'd say double the smartgun because even for the computer, there's a fair amount of estimation and 'guessing' when accounting for windage travel time, trying to properly lead a moving target, etc.  With a laser weapon, whatever's dead-center in the little camera's view is what you're hitting.
I agree the laser sight/red dot sight should be doubled, but a lot of modern targeting systems take care of most of those issues by using an impact box rather than actual crosshairs. You shot will land somewhere in the box rather than precisely on point X and hitting a target is a matter of making sure the whole box is contained within target. Windage and travel time arn't really guess work, they are just a matter of physics. Something that a processor in the smartgun is going to have no issue with. The only true guesswork would be target movement (hence the targeting box).

The point I'm trying to get at is that knowing exactly where the laser is going to hit (from the laser sight/Red Dot Sight) shouldn't be any different than knowing exactly where the laser is going to hit (from a smartgun). It's the exact same information in this case. Since you don't have to lead the target, movement isn't really an factor the smartgun would help with at all. So both modifiers should be the same.

Redmercury

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
« Reply #31 on: (07:12:10/10-18-12) »
The biggest difference is the interface. Smartgun systems are a lot more user friendly first of all. You don't have to hold it in a certain possession to aim, giving you a whole range of flexibility while aiming that a normal sight just couldn't offer. As far as the laser sight goes, and I believe someone mentioned this, but laser sights can be hard to see, especially when you're in a whirling combat, or it's really bright out. The laser sight is best used as a way to augment use of a sight already there.

Exodus

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 75
« Reply #32 on: (04:40:49/10-19-12) »
There is guesswork in estimating windage since unless you've got a lovely field of grass to shoot over you're not gonna get the wind pattern all the way to the target. In an urban environment you've got windage at your location, maybe windage at your targets' location since you're looking that way and if you're super good at multitasking you can guesstimate what the wind is like to the target.

This all assumes that the area has flags and loose clothing to help you out. A computer is just gonna have windage at the shooters' locale.

On topic, lasguns are great tools for GMs to show the PCs that they've hit the big leagues in a bad (read: awesome) way. They're also good for messy, brutal takedowns if your GM prefers the physics interpretation of pulse laser fire versus the movie version.
« Last Edit: (04:45:02/10-19-12) by Exodus »
I prefer to GM for Role Players not Roll Players

Redmercury

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
« Reply #33 on: (05:54:51/10-19-12) »
On topic, lasguns are great tools for GMs to show the PCs that they've hit the big leagues in a bad (read: awesome) way. They're also good for messy, brutal takedowns if your GM prefers the physics interpretation of pulse laser fire versus the movie version.
I'd say it's also fun if they're causing a big ruckus with some gangers, (or some other relatively weak group) and one of their prime runners shows up with a laser. Then the PC's are going- "WTF!? Where did he get that from?" You can also bet he's going to geek that caster mighty fast, especially if his tradition is Psionics and his name is Tetsuo. Then he's just asking to get shot with a laser.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6003
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #34 on: (06:33:57/10-19-12) »
On topic, lasguns are great tools for GMs to show the PCs that they've hit the big leagues in a bad (read: awesome) way. They're also good for messy, brutal takedowns if your GM prefers the physics interpretation of pulse laser fire versus the movie version.
I'd say it's also fun if they're causing a big ruckus with some gangers, (or some other relatively weak group) and one of their prime runners shows up with a laser. Then the PC's are going- "WTF!? Where did he get that from?" You can also bet he's going to geek that caster mighty fast, especially if his tradition is Psionics and his name is Tetsuo. Then he's just asking to get shot with a laser.

Lol, I'm gonna guess half the readers here miss that reference :P
Great movie though
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Redmercury

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
« Reply #35 on: (06:48:14/10-19-12) »
On topic, lasguns are great tools for GMs to show the PCs that they've hit the big leagues in a bad (read: awesome) way. They're also good for messy, brutal takedowns if your GM prefers the physics interpretation of pulse laser fire versus the movie version.
I'd say it's also fun if they're causing a big ruckus with some gangers, (or some other relatively weak group) and one of their prime runners shows up with a laser. Then the PC's are going- "WTF!? Where did he get that from?" You can also bet he's going to geek that caster mighty fast, especially if his tradition is Psionics and his name is Tetsuo. Then he's just asking to get shot with a laser.

Lol, I'm gonna guess half the readers here miss that reference :P
Great movie though
And books.  ;)

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8980
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #36 on: (12:47:24/10-19-12) »
Is it Akira?
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

WellsIDidIt

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
« Reply #37 on: (13:15:22/10-19-12) »
Quote
There is guesswork in estimating windage since unless you've got a lovely field of grass to shoot over you're not gonna get the wind pattern all the way to the target. In an urban environment you've got windage at your location, maybe windage at your targets' location since you're looking that way and if you're super good at multitasking you can guesstimate what the wind is like to the target.

This all assumes that the area has flags and loose clothing to help you out. A computer is just gonna have windage at the shooters' locale.
They've got programs now for tracking severe weather effects that track windage patterns from point A (the sensor) to point Z (limit of the sensor's range) and calculate the current conditions based off of results. They take in everything from reading surrounding movement (to which there is almost always something to gauge by from flags to power lines) to taking temperature readings from external surfaces to determine the affect of the wind on that surace). The military is already looking into applications for these programs, so I can't see them not being part of the ballistic processor of the smartgun.

Even without computer aid, basic windage has been taught to military snipers for a very long time and is more about math and quickly being able to react to changes than guesswork. A perceptive person can nearly always find something to gauge wind by.

Exodus

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 75
« Reply #38 on: (14:16:08/10-19-12) »
They've got programs now for tracking severe weather effects that track windage patterns from point A (the sensor) to point Z (limit of the sensor's range) and calculate the current conditions based off of results. They take in everything from reading surrounding movement (to which there is almost always something to gauge by from flags to power lines) to taking temperature readings from external surfaces to determine the affect of the wind on that surace). The military is already looking into applications for these programs, so I can't see them not being part of the ballistic processor of the smartgun.

Even without computer aid, basic windage has been taught to military snipers for a very long time and is more about math and quickly being able to react to changes than guesswork. A perceptive person can nearly always find something to gauge wind by.
Are you thinking of doppler weather radar? Cause that uses radar to pick up the movement of water droplets in clouds and the like. SR4A says a smartgun has a small camera and a laser rangefinder.

Also, long range shooting is definitely about guesswork, knowing your rifle, and knowledge of your sights wind values. Breaking out the calculator and carrying the 2 doesn't really have a place in the mountains of Afghanistan. Craig Harrison, current holder for longest sniper shot, took 7 rounds to range in a target in an environment with "no wind, mild weather, clear visibility", it was basically the perfect situation. FOR A LASER RIFLE

Edit: Trying to stay on topic here.
I may start adding negative dice mods for wind in long-ranged shootouts, maybe less if the weapon wouldn't reasonably be affected by wind.
« Last Edit: (14:20:21/10-19-12) by Exodus »
I prefer to GM for Role Players not Roll Players

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #39 on: (14:24:34/10-19-12) »
I may start adding negative dice mods for wind in long-ranged shootouts, maybe less if the weapon wouldn't reasonably be affected by wind.

IMO, a pointless additional penalty which is already accommodated in the normal penalties for range.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

JustADude

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
  • Madness? This! Is! A FORUM!
« Reply #40 on: (14:55:29/10-19-12) »
I may start adding negative dice mods for wind in long-ranged shootouts, maybe less if the weapon wouldn't reasonably be affected by wind.

IMO, a pointless additional penalty which is already accommodated in the normal penalties for range.

Agreed; Extreme Range is already at a -6 for a reason.
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
― Albert Einstein

"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
― Me

Exodus

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 75
« Reply #41 on: (17:15:54/10-19-12) »
A range penalty that is completely negated by aiming, taking up a simple action and doable with either sights with zoom functionality OR zoom eyeballs.
The range penalty is purely based on the distance to target NOT environmental conditions.

SR4A: pg.150

I think I'll give it a shot since one of my players built Bob Lee Swagger.
I prefer to GM for Role Players not Roll Players

WellsIDidIt

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
« Reply #42 on: (22:47:03/10-19-12) »
Quote
Are you thinking of doppler weather radar? Cause that uses radar to pick up the movement of water droplets in clouds and the like. SR4A says a smartgun has a small camera and a laser rangefinder.
No, if I were I would have said radar. It is in fact a program that takes in visual data (and thermal data) and monitors changes to make calculations on sight. It is of more use to engineers really than weather personnel as it is more telling of weather patterns that are going to cause stress on buildings, signs, hanging lines, etc. Doubly so in cities where the wind travels through alleys between the large buildings.
Quote
Also, long range shooting is definitely about guesswork, knowing your rifle, and knowledge of your sights wind values. Breaking out the calculator and carrying the 2 doesn't really have a place in the mountains of Afghanistan. Craig Harrison, current holder for longest sniper shot, took 7 rounds to range in a target in an environment with "no wind, mild weather, clear visibility", it was basically the perfect situation. FOR A LASER RIFLE
Knowing your rifle. Check. Knowing your sights. Check. Knowing the ballistics of the ammunition you are using. Check. No you don't use a calculator, that takes too much time. Most military snipers have a paper taped to their stock with drop rates per dot (on the mildot scope) and windage calculations to quickly adjust how far to adjust for wind. Every one is trained to be able to do this on the fly, because it is extremely important. In addition, the spotter is the one that normally does the calculations so that the shooter can keep concentration on maintaining visual on the target. It is all physics and perception. The smartlink doesn't need 7 shots to range in the target, because it's feeding off of data from thousands of shots under that profile and taking in data (through the camera) to calculate windage. It's got the bullet weight, range to target (range finder), camera footage for windage, temperature of the barrel, everything it needs to use simple physics and calculate the exact impact box for the round.

Now, a human might not be able to notice a change in conditions in some circumstances, but a computer can notice changes faster than the human and can calculate multiple data feeds at the same time much quicker. Even knowing temp differences between walls not in the wind path and walls against the wind helps determine wind speed and direction. Computers are better at this than a human, and will only get more and more so. The smartlink should be able to do this with no issue whatsoever. In fact, it has to in order to maintain it's credibility.

markelphoenix

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 243
« Reply #43 on: (08:44:09/08-12-19) »
The only laser I want is a targeting beacon for a Thor station. 8)

"I hacked the Thor station, once...."
-Last Will and Testament of a WizKid