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Ninja Gun

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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #30 on: <11-08-12/0929:49> »
I house rule the hell out of my games, but I don't give people rules advice based on my house rules. I also clearly state when I suggest a houserule that it is just that.

If I had a player come to me asking this question saying "It's ambiguous", I'd turn it down out of hand because there is only one clear way that it reads and that smells like a munchkiny excuse to be not quite honest.

The Viper is already quite powerful enough without AP Flechettes in all honesty, and we have no evidence that the metal slivers it fires aren't already a heavier metal (such as tungsten). Then again, my personal houserule is that AP Flechettes can only be fired from weapons with High Power Chambering), making it the high power version of ammo for flechette ammunition only guns.


JustADude

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« Reply #31 on: <11-08-12/1853:50> »
Quote
However, a more moderate interpretation
This is the stem of the problem you seem to have with me. I don't give people advice based on interpreting the rules to a point where I think they were intended. I tell them based on what the rules actually say.

The Viper is already quite powerful enough without AP Flechettes in all honesty, and we have no evidence that the metal slivers it fires aren't already a heavier metal (such as tungsten). Then again, my personal houserule is that AP Flechettes can only be fired from weapons with High Power Chambering), making it the high power version of ammo for flechette ammunition only guns.

Actually, Wells, the core of my problem with you is that you present yourself in your writing as highly egotistical and presumptuous... not to mention absolutely ignorant of the psychological mechanics of how the human mind processes information. For example, you actually appear to honestly believe what you're saying when you claim that you are the unimpeachable arbiter of Absolute Truth. I'm not trying to insult you, or say that you're a bad person. I'm just telling you how I'm interpreting your writing.

However, the simple fact of the matter is that you can't tell people "what the rules actually say," no matter how much of a subject-matter expert you deem yourself to be. You can only tell people your interpretation of what the rules say. Why? Because every single thing anyone does, including deciding how to apply a book of rules, is interpretation.

Right now, reading these words, you're interpreting variations of color and brightness on an illuminated panel into phonograms, then interpreting how the phonograms should be combined into syllables and the syllables into words and interpreting which of the plethora of possible meanings, both connotative and denotative, should be applied to those words. Then you're moving on to interpreting how the words combine into phrases and passages, along with the connotative and denotative implications of those, and then you're interpreting how each passage fits into the gestalt of your existing knowledge, and all the implications of that.

Each step has room for variation, based on personal, meta-contextual information... things such as your background, your current lifestyle and other social context, prejudicial dispositions (such as not liking how APF works as-written, or thinking that the Viper is "already quite powerful enough"), your emotional state at the time of reading, etc, etc, etc. The compounding variations can create a wide variety of different interpretations of the same raw source material. That's why two people can, for example, read the same passage and come away with vastly different interpretations of the integrated matrix created by the information within.

For example, you can interpret it as my opening comment as me simply cataloging my personal observations of certain negative aspects of your expressed personality, presented in the context of my explaining my distaste for you in the course of a civilized rebuttal, which is my intent, or you can interpret what I've said as a deliberate attempt to insult, mock, and/or condescend towards you, which is not my intent. However, at the end of the day, I have no control over your interpretation of the presented information, nor the interpretation of anyone else who reads this.

And, for those who are wondering why I'm leaving this public instead of taking it to PMs... simply put, it's because it has never hurt anyone to stop and take a moment to think about how they think, and hopefully I can increase some peoples'  self-awareness.

--- --- ---

And, more back on topic, actual ninjas, not the media-driven modern stereotype, had no honor when it came to getting the job done. They were assassins, plain and simple. They used disguises, stealth, trickery, sneaky gadgets, and any other tool they could get their hands on or concoct, no matter how "dishonorable" it was, so why should a modern "ninja" would no more hesitate to snipe someone from a kilometer away if it's the quickest, cleanest way to kill the target?
« Last Edit: <11-08-12/1908:59> by JustADude »
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Critias

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« Reply #32 on: <11-08-12/2207:27> »
Is there any topic you guys can't turn into a pissing and condescension contest? 

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #33 on: <11-08-12/2247:05> »
Quote
However, the simple fact of the matter is that you can't tell people "what the rules actually say," no matter how much of a subject-matter expert you deem yourself to be. You can only tell people your interpretation of what the rules say. Why? Because every single thing anyone does, including deciding how to apply a book of rules, is interpretation.
We aren't translating the rules to a different language. There is not intent vs. literal fight here. There quite literally is what the rules say, and I have, not once, debated what the authors intended rule is. I've argued what the actual rule in the book says.

You use interpretation to mean "I can make it say what I want". I can use interpretation to make Dragons be wonderful fluffy creatures that fly around popping rainbows out their ass, they have the ability for trid phantasm right. However, it isn't supported by any rules or fluff written for the game as far as I can tell.

You present your interpretation as supported by the rules, when it really is not. You're interpreting based on perceived intent rather than the actual physical wording of the document.

Quote
A) Armor Piercing Flechettes can be neatly described as "flechettes that contain armor-piercing properties,"
B) It's not the exact "Flechette Ammunition"
C) which hyper-restrictive types use as grounds to preclude APF ammo from use with (f) weapons
D) a more moderate interpretation
E) writer considered the name as being so obvious an indication of intent
F) "Flechette" is right there following the descriptive prefix "Armor Piercing."
Now, you can argue till your blue in the face that your interpretation is just a reading of the rules, but you made it clear in your reasoning that you've read the rules and that you decided what you thought was the author's intent.
A) Can be, could be, doesn't really matter, because they aren't described as "flechettes that contain armor-piercing properties."
B) Exactly my point. Flechette only weapons fire the exact ammunition Flechette. Thanks for admitting it.
C) There is no hyper-restrictive, there is most and least restrictive (there are only two options). This is the same crap politicians use to color themselves in a good light.
D) Again, it's not a moderate ruling, it's a least restrictive ruling. Second, it's an interpretation based on intent, not the actual rules.
E) Intent does not matter when following the rules laid out in the book. It may matter for house ruling, that's it.
F) So anything treated as an Explosive round can just be bumped up to EX-Explosive right?





CanRay

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« Reply #34 on: <11-08-12/2342:03> »
Is there any topic you guys can't turn into a pissing and condescension contest?
Apparently not.
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JustADude

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« Reply #35 on: <11-08-12/2357:51> »
Is there any topic you guys can't turn into a pissing and condescension contest?
Apparently not.

Oh, don't worry, this is the last one. I'm done wasting my breath.
« Last Edit: <11-09-12/0023:23> by JustADude »
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Unahim

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« Reply #36 on: <11-09-12/0404:15> »
Oh, don't worry, this is the last one. I'm done wasting my breath.

Wouldn't "I'm done cramping my fingers." be more appropriate? ^^

JustADude

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« Reply #37 on: <11-09-12/1113:19> »
Oh, don't worry, this is the last one. I'm done wasting my breath.

Wouldn't "I'm done cramping my fingers." be more appropriate? ^^

It's a metaphor. Hush. ;)

Anyway... as I mentioned earlier, I really don't see a real "ninja" type character... as opposed to a character emulating the stereotype popularized in the media... having a problem with sniping.

They were essentially spec.ops commandos, who used every dirty, dishonorable tactic they could think of, from poisons to disguising themselves as servants, to get an edge. If they'd had guns that could drop someone from a mile off I'm sure they'd have used them, too.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #38 on: <11-09-12/1136:39> »
I would just say that it takes a very particular personality type to become a successful sniper. In some ways, it is easier (psychologically speaking) to kill someone in hand to hand combat than to sit back a thousand yards off and play god. In addition, it takes a lot of training to be a proficient sniper. Which is why you don't often see snipers who are hand to hand combat masters IRL.

Someone being a real ninja would use guns, if necessary, but a real ninja would try and kill their target in such a way that people never knew they were there until they were long gone.
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« Reply #39 on: <11-09-12/1147:29> »
I would just say that it takes a very particular personality type to become a successful sniper. In some ways, it is easier (psychologically speaking) to kill someone in hand to hand combat than to sit back a thousand yards off and play god. In addition, it takes a lot of training to be a proficient sniper. Which is why you don't often see snipers who are hand to hand combat masters IRL.

Someone being a real ninja would use guns, if necessary, but a real ninja would try and kill their target in such a way that people never knew they were there until they were long gone.

According to literature and not Hollywood... Hand to hand for a ninja usually resulted in death if it wasn't a killing blow delivered from the shadows. (knife to the neck, garrote, poison blowgun)

Everyone seems to forget that ninja had to go up against Samurai, who were trained from birth in weapons and martial arts... Arts and disciplines denied to the common citizens that ninjas were from... Leaving them at a distinct tactical disadvantage in combat. Hence the ninja's reliance on destraction, poison, evasion, and guile.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #40 on: <11-09-12/1218:41> »
Hence my mention of 'psychologically speaking'. But yes, there is a reason why ninja used poison, darts, and shuriken. They were much more likely to use guerilla tactics and poison to accomplish their goals than long-range attacks. There are reasons for this, of course. When dealing with archery, it is harder to get a one-shot kill the further away you are. Especially if the person you're shooting is wearing armor. A ninja stood a much better chance of accomplishing their goal if they struck from stealth, looking either to cripple or kill their foe on the first attack. In Shadowrun, a monofilament garrote would be an ideal ninja weapon, as would a disguised blade coated in a fast acting toxin or drug. Slab or Laes would be ideal choices, since they cause instant unconsciousness, which makes a finishing blow easy, but pepper punch and smoke grenades would also be included in the arsenal.
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JustADude

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« Reply #41 on: <11-09-12/1328:41> »
I get what you're saying about cold-blooded murder from across the street being tougher to acclimate to but, just as a point of psychology, snipers are vastly less likely to suffer PTSD than people in CQB situations. Only people less likely, in fact, are pilots and those operating long-range, indirect-fire weapons.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #42 on: <11-09-12/1420:31> »
There are different reasons for that, of course. For fighter pilots and those firing artillery, tanks, or other such weapon systems, the fact is that you can't see the people you're killing, so it makes it easier to deal with, in much the same way as killing in a video game is much easier than in real life. For snipers, however, there is a different risk than PTSD. Snipers typically undergo rigorous psych evaluations before even getting trained, because the fact that you are sitting somewhere, watching through your scope, and playing god is something that easily leads one to become a sociopath. The risk for snipers, then, isn't typically PTSD, but that they will lose their grounding, and really start playing god.
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #43 on: <11-09-12/1449:25> »
One of the main roles Ninja's traditionally played was espionage, primarily arson. They were also known to use explosive devices. They weren't all about subtlety.

JustADude

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« Reply #44 on: <11-09-12/1850:43> »
There are different reasons for that, of course. For fighter pilots and those firing artillery, tanks, or other such weapon systems, the fact is that you can't see the people you're killing, so it makes it easier to deal with, in much the same way as killing in a video game is much easier than in real life. For snipers, however, there is a different risk than PTSD. Snipers typically undergo rigorous psych evaluations before even getting trained, because the fact that you are sitting somewhere, watching through your scope, and playing god is something that easily leads one to become a sociopath. The risk for snipers, then, isn't typically PTSD, but that they will lose their grounding, and really start playing god.

Very true. The connecting factor, of course, is the ease with which the soldiers can dehumanize his target and create mental and emotional distance from the event... and you are, again, quite correct that snipers have other mental-health hazards directly related to their own method of "distance making".

One small difference of opinion, though, is that I, based on my smattering of psychology and sociology classes (gotta love the Humanities requirements on an Engineering degree), personally am of the opinion that one has to have a personality that is already "hardwired" with traits aligned toward a given mental-health issue to ever develop it as a full blown mental health problem. Environmental conditions can, of course, take them from "personality trait" to "disorder," but can't create those behaviors from scratch. I am by no means an expert, but that's the general feel I've gotten.

In the end, of course, it boils down to the same thing... the military screens out the guys that don't look like they'll be able to keep a grip on their marbles along with the guys that will choke when it comes time to do cold-blooded murder on behalf of their country.
« Last Edit: <11-09-12/1855:33> by JustADude »
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
― Albert Einstein

"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
― Me