NEWS

Revolution TV series: An exercise in false dilemmas

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DarkLloyd

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« Reply #15 on: <08-06-12/2349:35> »
So, magic.

And general idiocy.  Firearms are not hard to reload.  And are a far sight easier to use than a sword or a crossbow.

Ayup; and they're simple technology, too. We had rim-fire cartridges in the 1830s, and center-fire in the 1860s, and the only reason we didn't get them sooner was because nobody had had been smacked upside the head by the idea yet.

Even if computer-controlled precision machining is off the table, you could still crank out WW-2 era weaponry just fine with purely mechanical efforts, unless someone has also destroyed all the schematics and technical documents on the subject, as well as every machinist, engineer, and gunsmith that knows how to build them.

see the above mentioned starvation deaths....
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JustADude

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« Reply #16 on: <08-07-12/0440:52> »
So, magic.

And general idiocy.  Firearms are not hard to reload.  And are a far sight easier to use than a sword or a crossbow.

Ayup; and they're simple technology, too. We had rim-fire cartridges in the 1830s, and center-fire in the 1860s, and the only reason we didn't get them sooner was because nobody had had been smacked upside the head by the idea yet.

Even if computer-controlled precision machining is off the table, you could still crank out WW-2 era weaponry just fine with purely mechanical efforts, unless someone has also destroyed all the schematics and technical documents on the subject, as well as every machinist, engineer, and gunsmith that knows how to build them.

see the above mentioned starvation deaths....

Except for the fact that guys like that are the ones that would be smart enough to go find some Amish, or trade their mechanical skills to a farmer for room and board, or otherwise trade their suddenly-even-more-useful skills to help with their survival. That vastly reduces the odds of them starving to death, compared to the consumer class that only knows how to live inside the system.

Plus, a lot of engineers and such that I know of are in the SCA and other historical recreation groups, which means they have connections to a population pool that all have "low tech" know-how and advanced training with melee weapons.
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DarkLloyd

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« Reply #17 on: <08-07-12/0909:07> »
So, magic.

And general idiocy.  Firearms are not hard to reload.  And are a far sight easier to use than a sword or a crossbow.

Ayup; and they're simple technology, too. We had rim-fire cartridges in the 1830s, and center-fire in the 1860s, and the only reason we didn't get them sooner was because nobody had had been smacked upside the head by the idea yet.

Even if computer-controlled precision machining is off the table, you could still crank out WW-2 era weaponry just fine with purely mechanical efforts, unless someone has also destroyed all the schematics and technical documents on the subject, as well as every machinist, engineer, and gunsmith that knows how to build them.

see the above mentioned starvation deaths....

Except for the fact that guys like that are the ones that would be smart enough to go find some Amish, or trade their mechanical skills to a farmer for room and board, or otherwise trade their suddenly-even-more-useful skills to help with their survival. That vastly reduces the odds of them starving to death, compared to the consumer class that only knows how to live inside the system.

Plus, a lot of engineers and such that I know of are in the SCA and other historical recreation groups, which means they have connections to a population pool that all have "low tech" know-how and advanced training with melee weapons.

Yeah, so do I. I'm in the SCA.
     And, yes, our kingdom has a "rally point" for apocalyptic events. But that in no way means that any of us are guaranteed to make it  there. From the mass rioting and looting, to thievery and murder that will be going on, to panic induced hysteria that turns even mild mannered neighbors into killers, most people haven't ever really thought out how bad complete anarchy will truly be those first few months.

     And as a side note look around the SCA or other reenactment group, it's not like those groups are all filled with hardy/strong  "live off the land" types. Yes there are those people in the organizations but they are the minority. And a lot of the ones with the knowledge aren't going to be able to use it because of infirmity or handicaps or obesity. Even the fighters, yeah they are big ass guys/gals and are strong, but a lot of them have bad joints now or bad backs, from the fighting.  And evacuating thru a ravenous city that is congested with fleeing/looting people isn't going to allow you to take a big truck full of supplies thru all the traffic without being killed for your stuff. (or if we are still going with the no electricity, a horse cart) So if you are going to escape it'll be on foot or on bikes. If you're lucky on horses and people with disabilities aren't going to make that trek. Plain and simple, if you can't run you can't survive. The one really good thing is that these groups usually have a high number of gun owners in the ranks, with multiple guns. Carrying an arsenal would burden you down too much food is much more valuable at that point, so it's not like these people are going to go all "punisher" on robbers, they won't have the ammo for that. 
This btw only applies to big cities and urbanized areas, rural areas and small towns should fare better, unless they are near enough to a large city to get overflow. So suburbs are done too.

     Sorry. The point to all that is, Yes, there are people that do have the knowledge to survive but Knowing and Doing are two completely different things. You are correct, after the frist few months when the biggest of the die offs are done those people with gunsmithing and machine-smithing skills can write their own ticket. But right now the fraction of people with those skills is really really small, less than a percent of the population. That percent will be even smaller after an event like this.
     It would slow any rebuilding of stuff for a good long while.
 
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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #18 on: <08-07-12/1349:56> »
Right now it's less than 1% of the population.  After the die off it's going to be about 5% to 10% of the population.  Not just because of the winnowing, but because anyone with a functioning frontal lobe will realize that those skills are what's needed to make it in the world now.  So a huge upsurge in physical, practical crafting skills will occur.
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ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #19 on: <08-07-12/1408:53> »
Or the ones that realize their knowledge = power will say "screw humanity's future, I care about me." Then we have knowledge hoarding and active murder (or at least ostracization) of rival scholars to secure a power base.

DarkLloyd

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« Reply #20 on: <08-07-12/1531:25> »
Right now it's less than 1% of the population.  After the die off it's going to be about 5% to 10% of the population.  Not just because of the winnowing, but because anyone with a functioning frontal lobe will realize that those skills are what's needed to make it in the world now.  So a huge upsurge in physical, practical crafting skills will occur.
Very true. Once it all shakes out and people figure out how to live again. We totally agree on this.

Or the ones that realize their knowledge = power will say "screw humanity's future, I care about me." Then we have knowledge hoarding and active murder (or at least ostracization) of rival scholars to secure a power base.
Both will happen more than likley.
And if not the crafters themselves, then the gang-leaders/warlords that keep them alive, will kill off the ones that won't work for them. To secure power for themselves.

Life will break down into anarchy, and from anarchy will come feudalism. Now whether we ever make it back out of feudalism again is anyone's guess.
Runing the shadows since '90
If you can't Dazzle them with STYLE, Riddle them with BULLETS.
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"Sometimes those are the same thing."-Mirikon

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Smileinbob

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« Reply #21 on: <08-07-12/1642:41> »
Modern diesels, yes.  Old skool diesels, no.

And where do you expect to see these "old skool" diesels? Mt. St. Helens did a great job of getting rid of a lot of old diesels (the ash got past a lot of filters, trashed a lot of cylinders). Then the various environmental laws made is much more economical to replace old engines with new ones, which went into place after the ECU-run engines became available. The T-34 may have had a rock solid diesel powering it, but this series isn't set right after WWII.

You actually see the "old school" diesels in pretty much every piece of heavy equipment there is.. all the trackhoe/backhoe/dozers tractors anything like that, they don't run the new fuel that truck drivers and on road diesels are required to. Some of them are so basic that with a few gasket and hose changes they could go back to running on peanut and veggie oil like the first diesels did..

If you live in the US next time you stop at a fuel station with several diesel pumps go over and look you should see one marked at agi fuel or red fuel. this is diesel that is ment to go into heavy equipment it has a much higher sulfur content and is not taxed the same as road diesel as it is for use only in farm/heavy equipment.

PeterSmith

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« Reply #22 on: <08-07-12/1747:54> »
Don't need to Bob. The last boat my father had was powered by a pair of Cummins 6C83s, they ran the same off-road fuel. As for you assertation that off-road diesels are exempt from the same air quality regulations that on-road engines are, you are mistaken. My sister-in-law works for Cat, she's a design engineer. Specifically, she designs the cooling systems for their medium front-end loaders. As new environmental regulations are published by the EPA she's making changes to her systems to allow the engines to still be legal. One of our friends is getting married in a month, he designed fuel injectors for Cat. My educational background includes a year and change learning how to repair and maintain diesels. From little stationaries up to a Signature 600.
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WSN0W

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« Reply #23 on: <08-07-12/1841:27> »
While not directly similiar, this show sounds like a poor man's John Ringo 'There Wil Be Dragons' A super hi-tech Sci-fi age that basically has the technology 'turned off' by the powers that be (it makes sense in the story) and the everyman struggle to survive without them.

The main heroes are SCA enthusists that were so bored with the 'press button for anything' that SCA took a huge uptake and people spent their near-immortal lives learning how to do things 'authentically'.

Smileinbob

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« Reply #24 on: <08-07-12/2043:30> »
Don't need to Bob. The last boat my father had was powered by a pair of Cummins 6C83s, they ran the same off-road fuel. As for you assertation that off-road diesels are exempt from the same air quality regulations that on-road engines are, you are mistaken. My sister-in-law works for Cat, she's a design engineer. Specifically, she designs the cooling systems for their medium front-end loaders. As new environmental regulations are published by the EPA she's making changes to her systems to allow the engines to still be legal. One of our friends is getting married in a month, he designed fuel injectors for Cat. My educational background includes a year and change learning how to repair and maintain diesels. From little stationaries up to a Signature 600.

Ok.. but you are saying that newer diesel motors will not run with out batteries. But i have seen them do so.. couple of years ago a jobsite i was on was robbed over the weekend and they took batteries out of the equipment along with the other crap they stole... any rate the foreman had a spare on his truck and we used that to fire the stuff up and then him and another guy went to the store and picked up more batteries, we only had problems with one because it needed the battery to run the fuel pump the other stuff ran fine. Now none of that stuff was off the showfloor new by any means but i dont think they were all that old either.

PeterSmith

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« Reply #25 on: <08-07-12/2217:45> »
Ok.. but you are saying that newer diesel motors will not run with out batteries.

Actually, I didn't. I said they need electricity to operate the electronics. Engines with attached alternators and generators self-produce that electricity. The purpose of a battery is to store power to start the engine (unless you use a pneumatic starter - think railroad diesel motors), and to stablize the electricity available to the vehicle. If your electrical source is stable enough for the electronics then they won't care where the electricity comes from, just that they have it.
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #26 on: <08-07-12/2345:35> »
Well, if whatever effect is taking place in the TV show operates by not allowing electricity to work at all, it wont matter if the electrical source is external or self-generated.


-k

PeterSmith

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« Reply #27 on: <08-08-12/0951:59> »
Well, if whatever effect is taking place in the TV show operates by not allowing electricity to work at all, it wont matter if the electrical source is external or self-generated.

Given that shot of the cars shutting off on the highway, indeed.

But I'm not interested in the show. As was stated by somebody else: "They are way too clean to be living in the wilds."
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

CanRay

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« Reply #28 on: <08-08-12/1101:58> »
Well, if whatever effect is taking place in the TV show operates by not allowing electricity to work at all, it wont matter if the electrical source is external or self-generated.

-k
So, crank for a Diesel Engine.  Get a big enough guy, and it can be "Kickstarted".  ;D
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« Reply #29 on: <08-10-12/0450:45> »
My plan is to wait until I watch at least the pilot, see why (or rather how) they say all the electricity is gone, see if it's a fun show that I might otherwise like, and then worry about how realistic the setting is.