[Critias]

No system has a perfect balance.  This I understand.  No system survives first contact with players, this I have an intimate understanding of.  Powergaming/numbercrunching is going to happen.

The desire to defend the system speaks highly of individuals' feeling for the game.  I simply see, what I consider to be, a design flaw.  SR4A with errata and optional rules, seem to work towards addressing issues.

I, as a GM who puts in hours of prep time for a game, to lose creation/s in a single all or nothing test feels like cheating.   I think the players would feel cheated as well, if in a single all or nothing test, they were wiped out.  

A dozen examples of how it is fine/okay/not that overpowered/my fault as a GM, can be presented and it wouldn't change how I feel.  Time, reflection, and further examination may convince me in the future; may.

Well, okay.  I guess there's not much point in talking to you about it, then.  I'm sorry you feel that way, but if you're mind's made up, your mind's made up.

It's my hope that you'll feel differently the next time a whole encounter gets knocked out by one well placed grenade and the chunky salsa rules, or a nice long burst from a drone-mounted minigun, or something.  *shrugs*  But if not, oh well.

[bedlam]

Two words: Prime Runner

Uncertain what you mean by that.

He means the if the normal NPC is being blown away by the team, throw a Primer Runner (200% of PC's BP) at them.

Ah, thank you, understood.

->Welshman:
        I was using screen at the time, and could have handled the situation better.  However, such is life.  I have, and will again fudge to keep a game going, I simply try to keep that to a min.

Well, okay.  I guess there's not much point in talking to you about it, then.  I'm sorry you feel that way, but if you're mind's made up, your mind's made up.

It's my hope that you'll feel differently the next time a whole encounter gets knocked out by one well placed grenade and the chunky salsa rules, or a nice long burst from a drone-mounted minigun, or something.  *shrugs*  But if not, oh well.

The ruined encounter was never the complaint, just a symptom.

[Kontact]

since drain can only be healed with bed rest.

Is this new?
I don't see anything in the first aid section prohibiting its use versus drain damage.

If you're too messed up to do it on yourself, just let the team's tech guy do it by remote.  Remember, Medkits are wifi enabled. 

Everything is wifi enabled...

[Mäx]

The issue, for me, boils down to this; I don't want to have to, plan nearly everything around the mage.    That could be a flaw in my GM style, ie lazy.    The idea of a planned main encounter, rendered almost laughable, by one mage willing to overchannel (or use a powerfoci) to manabolt/ball, feels wrong. 

If that happens, the problem isn't direct combat spells.
The problem is you thinking that a group of bad guys standing together in middle of open ground is somehow a smart idea that will produce a challenging encounter to your players.

There's somethink seriously wrong if the mage can take out all of the badguys with a spell that requiers him to have a LOS for everyone he wishes to affect.
I could possibly understand it happening if it was a Fireball overcasted at force 12.

[Bradd]

@Welshman: Fudging is controversial to begin with, and fudging against your players is a quick way to start a player mutiny. I've done it a couple times when I knew that no harm would come of it, to give the players another whack at a fun enemy, but I really don't feel good about it. Sure, players can get tired of easy victories, but they sure as hell don't appreciate being robbed of their victories. If you get caught, a lot of players will never trust you again.

@bedlam: I don't really agree that PCs are the GM's creation, and even if I did, I still don't think it's a good idea to get attached to them. I'm all for the Rule of Cool and rooting for the PCs, for sure! But don't ever get hung up on a character (PC or NPC). Do that, and you're just going to try to steal the show from everyone else (and probably fail). Likewise, don't get hung up on a plot, or you're going to miss out on all of the cool other things that might happen with input from the whole group.

[Doc Chaos]

Is this new?
I don't see anything in the first aid section prohibiting its use versus drain damage.

I think Dakka misread something, I cant find anything in the BBB besides that MAGICAL healing can't heal Drain damage.

[Welshman]

There are also some pretty simple anti-mage things that don't require creating something only the Mage can deal with.

There are two different magic resistance qualities to protect NPCs and you can always adjust background count.

Unlike some systems where magic can only be stopped with magic, SR has the ability to balance much better with just some simple tricks. It would almost be worthy of a GMs tip thread for simple ways to balance your mages in your game.

It can be done, without having to totally tailor to the Mage.

[bedlam]

@bedlam: I don't really agree that PCs are the GM's creation, and even if I did, I still don't think it's a good idea to get attached to them. I'm all for the Rule of Cool and rooting for the PCs, for sure! But don't ever get hung up on a character (PC or NPC). Do that, and you're just going to try to steal the show from everyone else (and probably fail). Likewise, don't get hung up on a plot, or you're going to miss out on all of the cool other things that might happen with input from the whole group.

If I'm to understand you correctly, don't get attached or I'll miss all the cool stuffs.  But if I don't get attached, why would it be cool?

If that happens, the problem isn't direct combat spells.
The problem is you thinking that a group of bad guys standing together in middle of open ground is somehow a smart idea that will produce a challenging encounter to your players.

There's somethink seriously wrong if the mage can take out all of the badguys with a spell that requiers him to have a LOS for everyone he wishes to affect.
I could possibly understand it happening if it was a Fireball overcasted at force 12.

It may simply come down to me "Thinking" wrongly, as you suggest. 

Manaball, overchannelled, force 10, spellcasting:5 + Magic:5 (9) (power foci R4) -2 for sustained spell (Improved Invis.).  Average Hits, 4.    Drainresist, Fucused Concentration (R2):2 + Logic:5 + Willpower:5 (9) (Sustaining foci R4 with increased Willpower) Limited spell(fetish): +2.   Average roll (6) hits.  Versus DV(10/2)+2=7.   Improved Invis allows for the LOS, with AstralPerception to reduce any possible Visual penalties. 

With an average Willpower:3.  Counterspelling:3 (benifit of the doubt). average Hits=2 to resist/soak.

Damage value, 12P. 

Anything in the area of the spell, 10m radius and visible, is in overflow except a troll, or heavily modified ork, and they are suffering a -3 to -4 wound modifier. 

All for a single box of physical damage on the part of the mage.  Not bad for a starting character.

[Doc Chaos]

And the Sam can throw grenades and the Rigger has drones with grenade launchers. And those two don't even have to face drain.

Yes, Shadowrun 4 is a very deadly game.

[Dakka]

Is this new?
I don't see anything in the first aid section prohibiting its use versus drain damage.

I think Dakka misread something, I cant find anything in the BBB besides that MAGICAL healing can't heal Drain damage.

That's my bad.  First Aid is somewhat unreliable anyway with the threshold of 2 before any healing gets in.  It also sounds like a good optional rule to me for drain damage to be beyond medical help.

[bedlam]

And the Sam can throw grenades and the Rigger has drones with grenade launchers. And those two don't even have to face drain.

Yes, Shadowrun 4 is a very deadly game.

Again, my issue isn't the deadliness of the game. 

Both of the above require 2 sets of tests; to hit, then to soak.  Two highly variable tests. 

Agreed, no drain required. 

Sammy: movement between throw and explosion/ number of grenades/ Alteration of damage by distance/ physical cover for soak/ Scatter, Armor added to soak tests, range modifiers.      Drone: Signal, ECCM, Program cost, Ammo count, Cost, Availability, Range modifiers, armor added to soak, Alteration of damage by distance, physical cover added to soak.

[Mäx]

Anything in the area of the spell, 10m radius and visible, is in overflow except a troll, or heavily modified ork, and they are suffering a -3 to -4 wound modifier. 
All for a single box of physical damage on the part of the mage.  Not bad for a starting character.

My combat face throws Breathtaker gas grenade into middle of the enemies, every enemy in 20m diameter, whether their visible or not, has to resist 8S with their body and if the remaining damage is over their willpower they're incapasitated. Throw in a Pepper punch gas grenade for good mesure and they have to resist an other 7S also again they are incapasited if that damage is over their willpower and they also douple all wound modifier if they somehow are still consius after that.

And she also didn't have to risk any drain.

[The_Gun_Nut]

And can toss both in the same action.

[bedlam]

Anything in the area of the spell, 10m radius and visible, is in overflow except a troll, or heavily modified ork, and they are suffering a -3 to -4 wound modifier.  
All for a single box of physical damage on the part of the mage.  Not bad for a starting character.

My combat face throws Breathtaker gas grenade into middle of the enemies, every enemy in 20m diameter, whether their visible or not, has to resist 8S with their body and if the remaining damage is over their willpower they're incapasitated. Throw in a Pepper punch gas grenade for good mesure and they have to resist an other 7S also again they are incapasited if that damage is over their willpower and they also douple all wound modifier if they somehow are still consius after that.

And she also didn't have to risk any drain.

Not as familier with Chemical weapons, but I'll give this a shot as well.  Is there a resist roll, then a soak roll?  

No affect to Spirits, or drones, (admitted Direct mana doesn't either on drones).  Chemical seal on armor, Trach Filter, Internal air tank, Toxin extractor, gasmask, chemsuit, hazmatsuit, respirator.  

Now lets replace Manaball with Stunball in my previous post.  Since DV is reduced to (10/2)+1=6   Now the mage takes no Drain Damage from the Overcast, and anything with an unmodified Willpower and Visible is down.

[bedlam]

And can toss both in the same action.

Only if your character is walking around with a grenade in each hand, and still there is range limits to apply.  I don't have breathtaker in the Core, but using Pepper punch, Speed: 1 Combat Turn.  Delay before effect.