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Ghostwalker

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ChromeZephyr

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« Reply #120 on: <06-18-12/1326:24> »
I would pay to see that show.

CanRay

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« Reply #121 on: <06-18-12/1514:08> »
I would pay to make that show.

Would someone Kickstarter that?

Heisenberg vs. The Kardashians, now that would rock.  Just start with him knocking on the door.   ;D
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Bira

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« Reply #122 on: <06-21-12/1155:20> »
I'm sorry, did you miss Harley's always-present defenses that I posted? And that's nothing compared to the Dragons.

I chalk those up to "authorial protection", where "author" here can just as easily mean "the GM of that campaign". I might have missed you quoting the source of those numbers, but to me it seems they were written by starting from the conclusion that "Harlequin is invincible" and working backwards to a set of numbers that seemed sufficiently high to justify that.

A more general answer to the "they have defenses" argument: I get it that these NPCs are powerful. I get that they'll have lots of security in place to protect their sorry hides. Bodyguards, fortresses, magic, and so on. In my opinion, it's okay to state that, and it's okay to design a hellishly hard security scheme around them, should the PCs go after these people for one reason or another. But if the PCs happen to get past all of that through their own creativity and personal power, then it's not okay to make new "unbeatable" defenses on the spot just to force failure upon them. That crosses the line into authorial protection and railroading. If someone is crazy and resourceful enough to stick a high-explosive rocket down a dragon's throat, then it goes down.

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And as for the whole retribution thing, the reason 'runners don't usually get too much retribution for their actions is the same reason they aren't a threat to the guys on top: runners are pawns.

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Revenge isn't profitable. Hunting down a runner team costs time and money and will be a pain in the ass unless they were stupid and left a bunch of clues

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The team in Ghost Cartels framed the Mafia for the hit (...)

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There's a certain suspension of disbelief that has to exist for Shadowrun to even exist, vis á vis the realism of the response to a team's actions.

I'm answering to all of the above in aggregate as well. I agree that there's a degree of suspension of disbelief involved here. However, I argue that it should be applied consistently. The rationalizations for why shadowrunners get away with scripted runs where someone hires them apply just as well to runs they perform out of their own personal initiative. Yet the same target is often said to be able and willing to find them and exact revenge when in the later case, but not in the former.

Shadowrunners are called "deniable assets" in corp-speak for a reason. An employer will almost never be willing to take the fall for a runner team they hired, and they'll almost never even help them hide. If the employer is a "power" themselves, the "almost never" becomes "never". If a competent runner team is able to hide from retribution when hired by someone, they should be equally good at it when working for themselves. Cross the mob/corps/dragons and they'll hunt you, sure, but they won't be any more able to find you than they were the last 50 times you crossed one of them on behalf of some power or other.

Let's take the Ghost Cartels example again, where a top Yakuza boss is assassinated. The runners avoid retribution from that because they frame someone else for the murder. Okay, that's valid. Now let's say that, instead of being hired by someone to do this, they decide to kill the gangster because one of the PCs had their family killed by him years ago. The rest of the group goes along because they got his back. No one hires them to do this. They make a sound plan, get the boss when he's vulnerable, pin the deed on the Mafia, and lay low for a while in another city, just like they'd do in the "for-hire" run. In my mind, they should be just as able to get away with their personal vendetta as they would with a normal run.

TheNarrator

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« Reply #123 on: <06-21-12/1245:02> »
Let's take the Ghost Cartels example again, where a top Yakuza boss is assassinated. The runners avoid retribution from that because they frame someone else for the murder. Okay, that's valid. Now let's say that, instead of being hired by someone to do this, they decide to kill the gangster because one of the PCs had their family killed by him years ago. The rest of the group goes along because they got his back. No one hires them to do this. They make a sound plan, get the boss when he's vulnerable, pin the deed on the Mafia, and lay low for a while in another city, just like they'd do in the "for-hire" run. In my mind, they should be just as able to get away with their personal vendetta as they would with a normal run.

All things being equal, I would tend to agree. If the runners really do plan and execute the run brilliantly and leave nothing to point back to them, then they should get to get away with it, at least for the time being. (Of course, since megacorporate CEOs have far greater resources than runners, and dragons may have means and methods available that runners cannot possibly know of and account for, pulling a perfect run against them is much more difficult than against some Yakuza boss. But if they manage it--a very big "if" indeed--they deserve to get away with it.)

A team doing the job for hire, however, may have an advantage over the team executing the run on their own, as the employer may have supplied the brilliant plan based on information that they possess and the runners do not, or may have provided the runners with information or assets that will greatly facilitate the execution of whatever brilliant plan they develop and the subsequent shifting of blame.

Mirikon

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« Reply #124 on: <06-21-12/1948:54> »
I'm answering to all of the above in aggregate as well. I agree that there's a degree of suspension of disbelief involved here. However, I argue that it should be applied consistently. The rationalizations for why shadowrunners get away with scripted runs where someone hires them apply just as well to runs they perform out of their own personal initiative. Yet the same target is often said to be able and willing to find them and exact revenge when in the later case, but not in the former.
Here's the thing, Bira: People aren't consistent. Pull the same job, in the same way, against the same person, and you may get different reactions based on their mood, time of the month, whether they lost that poker game last night, and more. Now, depending on who you target and how well you cover your tracks, they may have an overwhelming tendency to react one way, but there is no guarantee there.

Shadowrunners are called "deniable assets" in corp-speak for a reason. An employer will almost never be willing to take the fall for a runner team they hired, and they'll almost never even help them hide. If the employer is a "power" themselves, the "almost never" becomes "never". If a competent runner team is able to hide from retribution when hired by someone, they should be equally good at it when working for themselves. Cross the mob/corps/dragons and they'll hunt you, sure, but they won't be any more able to find you than they were the last 50 times you crossed one of them on behalf of some power or other.
You're forgetting scale, Bira. Those powers react differently to a gnat that's bothering them than they do to someone who tries to hurt them personally. If you're working for someone, they'll tend to go after the one moving the pawns, but you can't count on them not trying to find you to send a message to the runner community. If you're working for yourself, though, then they have more incentive to see to you personally, or else they appear weak.

Let's take the Ghost Cartels example again, where a top Yakuza boss is assassinated. The runners avoid retribution from that because they frame someone else for the murder. Okay, that's valid. Now let's say that, instead of being hired by someone to do this, they decide to kill the gangster because one of the PCs had their family killed by him years ago. The rest of the group goes along because they got his back. No one hires them to do this. They make a sound plan, get the boss when he's vulnerable, pin the deed on the Mafia, and lay low for a while in another city, just like they'd do in the "for-hire" run. In my mind, they should be just as able to get away with their personal vendetta as they would with a normal run.
If the team is willing to lay out the resources that the team that did that Yak hit did (which included top shelf new identities in another city for the entire team courtesy of the Johnson), then yes, they should be able to get away with it. Of course, they wouldn't be getting paid for that run, and would have to shell out for all the gear and such out of their own pockets. And there's the fact that the Yaks eventually caught on that the Mafia didn't do it, and turned their attention to blasting the people responsible for the pawns. If you are on your own, then that means that when they figure out it wasn't the Mafia, they'll be looking for you.
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #125 on: <06-22-12/1030:12> »
I'm sorry, did you miss Harley's always-present defenses that I posted? And that's nothing compared to the Dragons.

I chalk those up to "authorial protection", where "author" here can just as easily mean "the GM of that campaign". I might have missed you quoting the source of those numbers, but to me it seems they were written by starting from the conclusion that "Harlequin is invincible" and working backwards to a set of numbers that seemed sufficiently high to justify that.
Should have mentioned the source: Street Legends.
This does mean that what I quoted is canon, not something plucked out of a story made by whatever GM.
Now I'm not saying that if you decide to put Harley in your game, you`re forced to use those stats... but I am saying that in the SR setting anno 2074 this is pretty much how powerful you can expect him to be.
If you want him or others like him to be weaker, by all means, go ahead. But to me it seems like you're underestimating how much power and knowledge these figures have amassed.

As for 'runners doing 'runs without being hired, of course it's a possibility and they'd be just as good as when they were hired. Heck, probably better considering they have personal motivation to pull it off.
But when all's said and done, their target will look at what happened and ask questions.
In a normal run this would be something like: What happened? -> How did this happen? -> Who did this? -> Who hired these people? -> How do I get even to the people who paid for this?
On a personal run, it'll be: What happened? -> How did this happen? -> Who did this? -> What do you mean they appear to have done this for themselves?! -> How do I get even to them?
Difference there is that you made your team to stop being a pawn and be a player instead. And everyone knows that taking out a pawn is just a small thing, but knocking out a player wins you the game.

Sichr

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« Reply #126 on: <06-23-12/0745:39> »
xactly. How does pride help you against somebody who was able to survive millenia...

CanRay

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« Reply #127 on: <06-23-12/1152:51> »
xactly. How does pride help you against somebody who was able to survive millenia...
Pride goeth before a...  ;D
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Lacynth40

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« Reply #128 on: <06-23-12/2323:17> »
Here's the way I look at it when it comes to the IE's and Great Dragons. They aren't NPC's. They are setting. They are the same as the cities you run in. Yes, you interact with both, in different ways, but it comes down to what it would take to destroy them. It would take about as much to kill a Great or IE as it would to destroy a good sized neighborhood. And when it boils down to it, whether you blew up a Great or a section of the Barrens, the question is, why would you want the attention either action would bring?

No one is measuring genital size here. Why tear up a portion of the setting just because you can? And if you don't think there will be SERIOUS backlash from killing a Great, you aren't paying much attention to the setting as a whole. If a team of Shadowrunners can take down a Great Dragon or Immortal Elf with some fancy toys and a lot of planning, that means EVERY team can take them down with the same toys and proper planning. At least, as far as these setting pieces will see it. Which means it is now in their best interest to make sure whoever did it is publicly caught, tortured, and probably eaten. Shadowrun is NOT DnD. You don't wander into a dragon's lair, and slay him. Because he has resources you can't match, and the willingness to use those resources for his own well-being. He also has peers that have a healthy sense of self-interest. Just treat the IE's and Greats like talking setting pieces, and smack the hell out of any PC's that get uppity enough to try shooting them.

On another note, if you have access to the Thor Shot to take down a Great, then what are you doing running the shadows, when you have a Megacorp to run.
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CanRay

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« Reply #129 on: <06-24-12/0206:42> »
Don't piss off a city.  When it hits you, you find out just hard the streets really are.
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #130 on: <06-24-12/0433:35> »
Here's the way I look at it when it comes to the IE's and Great Dragons. They aren't NPC's. They are setting. They are the same as the cities you run in. Yes, you interact with both, in different ways, but it comes down to what it would take to destroy them. It would take about as much to kill a Great or IE as it would to destroy a good sized neighborhood.
Y'know, that's pretty well said.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #131 on: <06-24-12/0906:24> »
Here's the way I look at it when it comes to the IE's and Great Dragons. They aren't NPC's. They are setting. They are the same as the cities you run in. Yes, you interact with both, in different ways, but it comes down to what it would take to destroy them. It would take about as much to kill a Great or IE as it would to destroy a good sized neighborhood.
Y'know, that's pretty well said.

I have to agree.

+1 to Lacynth, I do believe.

DazedDante

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« Reply #132 on: <06-24-12/1003:19> »
May seem like an odd question but does Ghostwalker assume his metahuman form? I have the impression he's too 'dragon' for that

If so where would i find a description of it?

Lacynth40

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« Reply #133 on: <06-24-12/1014:39> »
May seem like an odd question but does Ghostwalker assume his metahuman form? I have the impression he's too 'dragon' for that

If so where would i find a description of it?

Hmm... He does seem the kind to say "Bitch, I'm a dragon. Go on with that metahuman form crap." But, he also doesn't seem the kind of dragon to waste an opportunity to gain the upper hand. So, he probably does go metahuman, to get less attention than he normally would, but be grumpy about it the whole time. I think a couple of books have mentioned his metahuman form. I think one fiction bit somewhere did... I know it's out there somewhere...
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Longshot23

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« Reply #134 on: <06-24-12/1114:13> »
May seem like an odd question but does Ghostwalker assume his metahuman form? I have the impression he's too 'dragon' for that

If so where would i find a description of it?

Year of the Comet pg 71, when he attended the Denver Council meeting when they acquiesced to his assertion of control, although his metahuman form is not described.  For that turn to Dragons of the Sixth World pg 60, where his (known) metahuman form is described as, quote "Tall male human with white hair" unquote.

 

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