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Ghostwalker

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Bira

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« Reply #45 on: <06-13-12/0526:57> »
The person who created Ghostwalker hasn't written for Shadowrun for a very, very long time. Care to provide a source for your assertion?

Unfortunately not - I saw it a very, very long time ago in some interview or forum, back when said person was still writing for Shadowrun, and I wouldn't be able to track it down now. Feel free to ignore it.

Except the classical definition of a Mary Sue is that the Mary Sue is a major protagonist in the story.

He certainly feels like that whenever someone mentions him. It could be that I've just seen those ten years in an awfully compressed form, but this dragon just arrives at the scene, claims a metahuman city as his "sovereign territory", and proceeds to eat anyone who displeases him. Any mention of him from that point on, even by other overly powerful NPCs, basically boils down to "don't displease Ghostwalker or he'll eat you". Even in his exit scene in Artifacts Unbound, you have Harlequin and others gushing about how awesome he is to have "out-schemed the schemers". Most of the other dragons are a little more integrated in society - those who behave similarly to Ghostwalker are reviled and have to actually hide from mortal retribution, powerful as they may be. Ghostwalker seems to just get away with his despotic shenanigans.

The truth is, I dislike most of those super-NPCs from Shadowrun, for the same reason I usually dislike Elminster and company in Forgotten Realms. I'd be very glad if there were other ways to allude to Earth's mythical past other than remarking how awesome, inscrutable and invincible they are.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #46 on: <06-13-12/0645:07> »
Even in his exit scene in Artifacts Unbound, you have Harlequin and others gushing about how awesome he is to have "out-schemed the schemers".
I think you need to re-read Praxis.

Bira

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« Reply #47 on: <06-13-12/0908:33> »
Hm... Yeah. I see it's only Harlequin praising Ghostwalker, not others. "Harlequin had to admire the white wyrm for that if nothing else. He played a bunch of schemers like only he or his
clutchmate could."

Dunkhelzahn was alright, because the image of a dragon giving interviews, hosting talk shows and running for President was funny. His will was a cool bit of metaplot because most of it was left open for individual groups to interpret and use as they saw fit.

You never get any variety when it comes to Ghostwalker - every time I've seen him mentioned, it's always a description of how "badass" he is, how he stares down whole military task forces, and how everyone and their mother is afraid of even thinking of going up against him in any way. I'll grant that it may not fit the definition of "Mary Sue", but still, he's this huge invincible dragon without an ounce of real personality beyond "grim and determined". That gets boring quickly. If Praxis is any indication, if Ghostwalker ever shows up in your campaign it's cutscene time, complete with at least one sentence about how the poor runners are out of their league and might as well either bend knee and obey, or roll over and die. Are there any adventures where PCs can pull one over on him?

At least with Lofwyr (the other big dragon who's angry all the time) you get some more color, and a sense that his schemes can be thwarted. You can expect to run against S-K and live to enjoy the money.  At least, you do if you ignore that one bit of authorial gushing back in Threats 1 or 2 that said Lofwyr was always twenty steps ahead of everyone else, and if it seemed like you succeeded it was because he wanted you to think that. That's also boring.

Netzgeist

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« Reply #48 on: <06-13-12/0924:35> »
It's a little awkward trying to justify a dragon's behavior (when they are mostly described as having a very alien mentality to humans), but still, Ghostwalker arrived on the Sixth World quite late, and when he did it, his brother, one of the most powerful dragons on the other ages, was already dead (circunstances unknown). I think his posture is quite understandable.

Also, contrary to many, Denver is, so far, the setting I like the most.

Sichr

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« Reply #49 on: <06-13-12/0928:22> »
Most of the other dragons are a little more integrated in society - those who behave similarly to Ghostwalker are reviled and have to actually hide from mortal retribution, powerful as they may be. Ghostwalker seems to just get away with his despotic shenanigans.

I think you need to check some info on Aden for example. Or Lofwyr. You better go with - dragons are god-like creatures capable of whatever they want to, and the only way to stop great dragon from doing as he pleases is ...to be another great dragon possibly with some aliance. Ghostwalker simply fits into this, well As dfar as Im playing shadowrun for years, Ive never used any dragon as NPC...only as a possible manace...and this includes Artifacts II run throught Denver, where GW just helped me to build up atmosphere of paranoia and cautiousness while running on dragons turf. Dragons active participation in events...well...that is only in those "Tell them straight" boxes or in cannon things. Influences background and setting...not the game itself...
Sure...when somebody walks into denver considering himself invincible and challenge GW to duel, I never give second thought on theat and I simly say to the rest of the team: and so he disappeared and was never heard again. and ask the player to create new character without any karma from previous, because he apparently learned nothing...

raggedhalo

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« Reply #50 on: <06-13-12/0928:53> »
The first campaign I ran in SR4 was in Denver, mixing the Denver Missions and Emergence with some homebrew.  The different Zones added some nice flavour to things and really gave lots of space for new ideas.

Ghostwalker isn't invincible, just really really hard to kill (which seems perfectly reasonable to me).  And by and large, you aren't going to attract his attention unless you're really trying...
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raggedhalo

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« Reply #51 on: <06-13-12/0930:19> »
You better go with - dragons are god-like creatures capable of whatever they want to, and the only way to stop great dragon from doing as he pleases is ...to be another great dragon possibly with some aliance.

But at least Shadowrun doesn't do the Exalted thing of "Deathlords are amazingly super-clever.  They always automatically know the PCs' plans and can thwart them any time they like."  Makes even turning up kinda pointless after a while...

Dragons are crazy-smart, and that's absolutely fine.  But they make lots of room for cool stories, which is the point.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #52 on: <06-13-12/1115:27> »
He certainly feels like that whenever someone mentions him. It could be that I've just seen those ten years in an awfully compressed form, but this dragon just arrives at the scene, claims a metahuman city as his "sovereign territory", and proceeds to eat anyone who displeases him. Any mention of him from that point on, even by other overly powerful NPCs, basically boils down to "don't displease Ghostwalker or he'll eat you".

The same can be said of any dragon. Or any megacorp CEO. Or any national leader. Or any underworld boss. Not the eating part, usually, but still, if you displease the powerful forces in the world, they can (and will) bring the hammer down on you. I think maybe you're fixating a little too heavily on Ghostwalker, which is keeping you from seeing that this is how most power players in the Sixth (or any) World act. Do you think that doing something to personally raise the ire of Damien Knight is going to be good for your health? Of course not.

Most of the other dragons are a little more integrated in society - those who behave similarly to Ghostwalker are reviled and have to actually hide from mortal retribution, powerful as they may be. Ghostwalker seems to just get away with his despotic shenanigans.

That's because of where he is and who he picks on. Look at Denver, back during the Year of the Comet. You have six countries sharing one sprawl. The UCAS doesn't like any of the others, and certainly doesn't trust them. The CAS hates Aztlan with a passion. Aztlan is scheming how to screw everyone. The PCC hates Aztlan, and doesn't trust the Sioux. The Ute is just plain screwed up. The Sioux thinks anyone who isn't Sioux is out to get them. The city has been the main point of friction since the end of the Ghost Dance war. Everyone knows that if war ever breaks out between the national powers, then Denver is going to be where it happens.

Then, in the middle of a year with the Orichalcum Rush, the Shedim, SURGE, the Probe race, and all the insanity that went along with it, out comes Ghostwalker from the rift, picks up his body, and proceeds to go house on Denver (focusing mainly on Aztlan and S-K). Why doesn't someone use orbital lasers or fighter jets against him, like they did with Alamaise and Feurschwinge? Because there isn't supposed to be a military presence in the Treaty city. The Azzies wanted to bring troops in, but the PCC and others told them it would be an act of war. The military they'd already stashed in Denver tried fighting, but the other countries started talking about treaty violations. Then Ghostwalker shows up at the Council of Denver, and you can see that he's made a deal with all the countries except Aztlan. He gets to rule Denver, which none of the treaty nations particularly cared about doing, so long as their rivals didn't get to do it, and they get to poke Aztlan in the eye, which always makes people happy.

You never get any variety when it comes to Ghostwalker - every time I've seen him mentioned, it's always a description of how "badass" he is, how he stares down whole military task forces, and how everyone and their mother is afraid of even thinking of going up against him in any way. I'll grant that it may not fit the definition of "Mary Sue", but still, he's this huge invincible dragon without an ounce of real personality beyond "grim and determined". That gets boring quickly. If Praxis is any indication, if Ghostwalker ever shows up in your campaign it's cutscene time, complete with at least one sentence about how the poor runners are out of their league and might as well either bend knee and obey, or roll over and die. Are there any adventures where PCs can pull one over on him?
That's the reaction most people have to great dragons, Bira. These are huge creatures of myth and legend, with awesome physical power, an intellect the product of millenia of study, and magical firepower that no single person could hope to match. The right and proper response of everyone who doesn't have a death wish is "Don't screw over a dragon."

Ask people in the outskirts of Tehran about whether you should piss off Aden. Ask the people in Frankfurt what happens when Lofwyr decides to take a fight to someone in person. When you personally get on a dragon's bad side, BAD THINGStm happen. Read one of the pieces of fiction in the SR4A book. A dragon sics MCT on a runner team because one guy slept with one of his adopted daughters, not knowing who she was.

But yes, you can run in his domain, and not get thrashed. You can even do a run against him, and not get eaten, if you're good enough. Why? Because unless you do something to personally raise Ghostwalker's ire, he's going to ignore you like the pawn you are, and go after your masters.

At least with Lofwyr (the other big dragon who's angry all the time) you get some more color, and a sense that his schemes can be thwarted. You can expect to run against S-K and live to enjoy the money.  At least, you do if you ignore that one bit of authorial gushing back in Threats 1 or 2 that said Lofwyr was always twenty steps ahead of everyone else, and if it seemed like you succeeded it was because he wanted you to think that. That's also boring.
That isn't just in Threats 1 and 2. Lofwyr is ALWAYS the wheels within wheels kind of guy. He is the Doctor Doom of the Shadowrun world. Even when you foil one plot, that advances three others. And, like Ghostwalker, Lofwyr usually doesn't interest himself in pawns, unless they make themselves particularly troublesome, or go out of their way to insult him. He goes after the masters, and his vengeance is subtle and brutal.

Why? Because he's a dragon, and that's what dragons do.

From what you've said, Bira, I think your problem isn't actually with Ghostwalker or the other immortals in SR. Your problem is that you don't like the fact that there's really no way a PC can get to the same level of personal power as a creature who has lived for thousands of years.
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Longshot23

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« Reply #53 on: <06-13-12/1131:48> »
there's really no way a PC can get to the same level of personal power as a creature who has lived for thousands of years.

Which, IMO, is reasonable.  If a PC can get to that level, why are they still running the shadows?  What's left for them to do?  If they're at that level and running the shadows, that goes WAY beyond munchkin/power gamer in the worst possible sense.

lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #54 on: <06-13-12/1210:50> »
Oooohhhh a Ghostwalker thread.

The bestest dragon ever, he not only gets to boss around a city, he gets to boss around Treaty city. He doesn't just build an army of loyal retainers he forces the nations of the continent to or he'll eat them, or something. Treaty city is super valuable, but not enough to fight for so Ghostwalker takes it off their hands because otherwise there'd be war, but what was that thing with the big stompy dragon.

Ghostwalker broke Denver and broke the concept of even Dragon's manuevering discretely around national governments and AAA megacorps. He broke any concept of parity between magic and tech (because what's the point of all this tech if dragons win everything). That's why he's the Mary Sue super dragon and that's why I hate him.
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ChromeZephyr

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« Reply #55 on: <06-13-12/1315:13> »
Can...can we get "Mary/Marty Stu" banned as a phrase on this board?  I haven't even been here that long and I'm already tired of reading it.

Mirikon

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« Reply #56 on: <06-13-12/1327:05> »
You people really need to restrict yourselves to only applying 'Mary Sue' to those characters that actually fit the definition. You're as bad as FOX News calling people socialists.

Now, Lurker, let's talk about Denver, and put things in context. You want to know why Denver was important before Ghostwalker showed up? That's right, it was a convenient smuggler haven, and one of those places that, like Berlin during the cold war, didn't have any real strategic advantage, but people held on to it out of pride and because they didn't want the other kid to have that piece of the pie. The treaty nations didn't care about Denver as a city, which is why absolutely nothing got done most of the time. Look at the US Congress today, add in four more parties that all hate eachother, and can't work with the other people at the risk of looking weak, and you got the idea.

So no, they didn't care about Denver. Not one bit. They just didn't want any other nation to have all of it. Then Ghostwalker shows up, kicks Aztlan where it hurts, and throws them out. Now, the other treaty nations may not like eachother that much, but seeing someone take it to Aztlan always makes them smile. And the dragon gave them a bit of a sweetheart deal. Ghostwalker is the one in charge now, so they can leave the running of the city to the Council, and say they are hands off. The ZDF eliminates the constant cold war brinksmanship of always having combat divisions "just passing through", to maintain a military presence without maintaining a military presence. And with a Great Dragon in charge, then the UCAS can at least be sure that the Sioux won't invade their sector, and so on. And furthermore, in a year full of people SURGEing out of control, Orichalcum being found (with the associated Resource Rush), and the FRAGGING DEAD RISING UP FROM THEIR GRAVES AND ATTACKING PEOPLE, most of the treaty nations that weren't Aztlan were content to let Ghostwalker have his fiefdom, and then try to find some way to wheedle more power away from him when the world wasn't going to hell in a handbasket.

You people seem to forget that Ghostwalker was just another part of the whole world going batshit crazy in 2063. All the treaty nations had problems closer to home, so moving Denver further down the list of things that could frag up your day seemed like a good idea at the time.

Ghostwalker didn't break Denver. He gave it a shot in the arm. Denver was, and still is, a hub of smuggling and international espionage. That's not changed. In fact, the spy situation's gotten even more intense, as you have not only spies from national governments and megacorps, but now spies who are looking into the affairs of a dragon, as well as people looking to keep an eye on the religion that takes Ghostwalker as its patron saint. However, instead of six armed camps on a footing that would make Berlin, circa 1956 seem quaint, slowly sliding towards stagnation because the council won't do anything. Now Denver has been revitalized, because people don't like to start businesses in a potential war zone. The Olympics brought a lot of attention Denver's way, and Denver likely wouldn't have gotten either of the games if it was still under the old system. Plus, the rise in the Awakened population of the Hub is directly attributable to Ghostwalker's presence, and that's good for tourism for the whole city.

The core of Denver in SR has always been smuggling and espionage. Ghostwalker only helped that.
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« Reply #57 on: <06-13-12/1329:45> »
@ChromeZephyr You're stuck with just smiting them.

I think this is hilarious.

Nath

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« Reply #58 on: <06-13-12/1408:44> »
You people seem to forget that Ghostwalker was just another part of the whole world going batshit crazy in 2063.
Year of the Comet events happen between January, 2061 and April, 2062. Ghostwalker first attack in Denver is on December 24th, 2061, and the council hands him full control on January 27th, 2062.

Sichr

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« Reply #59 on: <06-13-12/1410:21> »
To me it seems like trolling/Complaining about nothing. Since for some of them that was the first and only post, they seem to have nothing else to add...well, its the same thing as complaining about wireless etc. Useless. Not fun. Not even reasonable.
BUT
It gave Mirikon and some other people oportunity to make a few really good posts about how GW entered the scene and nice recapitulation of historical context of his comming.
Well
What Im more interrested now is his comming back again...
Since he seem to left to metaplanes for some new kind of hunt, according to the Rift scene in A:Unbound...with some hunt finished...also not really clear what it was he was up to in that one. Some things from even previous, Earthdawn era? Or some new recent enemy? Do we know who become his pry before and was finnaly taken down? Any rumors? Or is it only something dragons would understand?