[raggedhalo]

To each their own. I try my best to run my games where no matter how good my players are, they always live in fear, always feel like nothing they do changes anything.

I try to run my games so that that feeling certainly comes up quite often* but the runners can, if they really throw themselves at something, make a difference.  And crucially, that the things they do matter - maybe not to them, but certainly to the Johnson and the target.  So they might not make changes that they like or that they chose, but they do make changes.



*: recently, my wetwork-averse team delivered The Dragon (of Chasing The Dragon fame) to Lone Star (relocated the mission to Seattle).  He's been offered immunity and witness protection to turn traitor on the Yaks - so the Yaks have abducted two of the PCs' friends and ordered them to kill the Dragon or watch their friends die...

[raggedhalo]

I personally pity the people who planted that bomb when 'runners like FastJack find them...

Of course, lots and lots of teams remember planting that bomb, per Super Tuesday, IIRC...

[CanRay]

Of course, lots and lots of teams remember planting that bomb, per Super Tuesday, IIRC...

Yeah, but the ones who actually did it...

Oh yeah, they going to wish they were just dead slow and painful...

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Mmm, the conspiracy theoristes are out in force today. 

[Netzgeist]

Mmm, the conspiracy theoristes are out in force today. 

Ghostwalker was never a dragon at all! It's just a clever hologram projection and some missiles shot at preprogramed times at the right spot, by the VICTIM ITSELF! It's just an Aztlan scam to make dragons look bad, but it has gone wrong and now they have no way to put it down!

And that's, my friends, it's what happens when you get Plan 9 drunk.

[CanRay]

Actually, Plan 9 can't get drunk due to an augmentation (s)he has that prevents it from happening, as that's the first step to...

...

How do I know I can really trust you?

[Wakshaani]

Have I mentioned how much I lovbe writing for Plan 9?

Because I really, really do.

[TheNarrator]

Which brings us back around to the "retribution" argument. Mirikon basically says "if you don't do anything too bad, the corps won't even notice you, but pissing someone specific off is certain death". But that archetypal run I mentioned does involve doing something "bad enough" - you're stealing vital research! Or maybe extracting a disgruntled genius along with his irreplaceable body of work. Ares would be a lot angrier about that than about someone stealing Knight's gun collection, and yet they somehow can't do anything about it as long as the players are following the script.

Revenge isn't profitable. Hunting down a runner team costs time and money and will be a pain in the ass unless they were stupid and left a bunch of clues. And it will net exactly 0 nuyen for the company: the runners have already passed on whatever they stole to the Johnson. It can't be undone. Nor will brutal retaliation prevent future runs: there will always be someone desperate enough to risk death for a payday, and MCT's Zero Zone policy hasn't prevented them from being subject to shadowruns. Shadowruns are just the price of doing business, and shadowrunners are just tools. The real enemy is the rival corporation that hired them. Do you waste your time avenging yourself on a blunt object, or do you go after the one who swung it?

It's only when personal pride gets involved that people start throwing good money after bad and wasting money on revenge for such slights.

For a more concrete example, you have Ghost Cartels, where the PCs get to kill the top Yakuza boss in Seattle and get away with it. And there's a Missions adventure that asks PCs to blow up the Brooklin Bridge and expects them to still be around for the rest of the campaign if they succeed.

The team in Ghost Cartels framed the Mafia for the hit, keeping the Yakuza too distracted by revenge to realize their mistake until they're distracted by the mob war that's started. As for the Brooklyn Bridge example... I kind of agree that it's pretty outrageous, and an adventure that I would never try to run with my regular group because they'd just be like "Are you nuts?" (plus the high collateral damage factor), but at the end of the adventure the Johnson does take the fall to protect the runners, and there are secret corporate interests at work that actually want the bridge destroyed and the Johnson blamed who helped cover things up.

[CanRay]

Have I mentioned how much I lovbe writing for Plan 9?

Because I really, really do.

He's a fun character.  I didn't use him much in Safehouses, but I loved what I did put in.

[Wakshaani]

Plan 9's a hoot, because, sometimes, Plan's stuff is *right*, but no one else can ever see that.

Slamm-o! is a given, as is Kane, and /dev is getting moments, now, that don't revolve around "Uhm. What's that?" so, character growth = good thing.

I think I have trouble treating Netcat fairly, but I've also found Icarus to be ... damn handy.

[CanRay]

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!  We can't have that!  Status Quo is God! 

[Wakshaani]

Hush you! Next thing you know, people will be wanting *depth* and stuff.

And then Slamm-O! gets all eyeliner'd and talking about Pathos and the like.

And nobody wants that.

"Why are you crying?"
"Because it's 2 PM!"
"What does that have to do with anything?!"
"I don't know! I think it has something to do with Tumblrrrrr Waaaahhhh..."

[Mirikon]

Hush you! Next thing you know, people will be wanting *depth* and stuff.

And then Slamm-O! gets all eyeliner'd and talking about Pathos and the like.

And nobody wants that.

"Why are you crying?"
"Because it's 2 PM!"
"What does that have to do with anything?!"
"I don't know! I think it has something to do with Tumblrrrrr Waaaahhhh..."

Hey, we need some shallow points so we can recognize depth elsewhere.

[Black]

That's why you have to watch both Breaking Bad and the Kadashians.

[Wakshaani]

And now I have "Breaking the Kardashians" in my head as a show.

Curse you!