[Mirikon]

Just because it is a paranormal means of sight doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to do such mundane things as watch the physical display screen. Any simsense is obviously out, but I've never heard a satisfactory explanation why a manifested spirit couldn't read a physical display screen, or listen to the audio from a television set.

[Keita]

It certainly doesn't make any sense because all sound is is pressure waves in the air. If  spirit can hear you speak, it should certainly be able to hear a speaker, because both operate on the same principle. I can understand their sight being based on perceiving the inherant "spirit" of everything, but hearing is something entirely different. I can understand not seeing a screen because they don't perceive light, and therefore they'd see a screen as a single object displaying nothing because the display is nothing more than an electronic representation.

[Tsuarok]

I'd rule that they could read a display (provided that they are literate).  That still rules out  most useful definitions of "using computers" in the 2070s, as everything is simsense based. 

As for using simsense, I think the only way is through the inhabitation power, as these have neural structures and can use DNIs.  I personally would rule that possession would not even permit the use of vehicle accessories like weapons and such, as these are added on in much the same way as cyberware is in a metahuman.

[Lethe]

It certainly doesn't make any sense because all sound is is pressure waves in the air. If  spirit can hear you speak, it should certainly be able to hear a speaker, because both operate on the same principle. I can understand their sight being based on perceiving the inherant "spirit" of everything, but hearing is something entirely different. I can understand not seeing a screen because they don't perceive light, and therefore they'd see a screen as a single object displaying nothing because the display is nothing more than an electronic representation.

Yes, that's the way i see it too. The hearing restriction was just part of my astral approach. If the senses are considered paranormal, it doesn't really fit  anymore.

[Lysanderz]

Not that it makes any difference, but spirits can have eyes. Each tradition and totem summons their own interpretation of a spirit of man or beast spirit. A Shinto beast spirit may be more asian (Tiger-esque creations, etc) while a native american beast spirit might closer resemble a bear. So let's clarify that they can have "Eyes" in the physical sense.

Personally I would say that spirits can see as we can, because last I checked they aren't exempt from glare modifiers (IE Light) or any other form of vision distortion (Smoke for instance). I don't see how they can be affected by Strobing and smoke grenades but not be able to read a computer screen (Not one of them fancy holo-screens but say an iPhone screen).

[DaveDaveDaave]

I played it as coloured dots on a monitor or displayed holographically have no real emotional meaning to a spirit unless its Possessing a person. However for no other reason than Rule of Cool that spirits are perfectly capable of watching 2d movies projected onto a wall. Wandering into an old movie theater when the "patrons" are singing along to "Time on My Side" loudly while watching Fallen is a striking mental image.

[Demerzel]

I know that a spirit can't use AR or VR, but they can read what is written on a piece of paper or a road sign, right? So why can't they see what is printed on a physical display screen, or use old-fashioned cyberterminals?

I wonder if spirits actually have any language skills. 

[raggedhalo]

It certainly doesn't make any sense because all sound is is pressure waves in the air.

IIRC, when you're in the astral you can hear what people are saying in the corresponding physical space.  Deaf magicians can hear when astrally perceiving (pg. 191, SR4A).

So if you're in the same place as someone, you "hear" them astrally because they're directly communicating their emotional intent (or lying about it, whichever).  Speakers don't do that.

It is almost always a mistake to attempt to use physics to understand the magic rules.

[Lysanderz]

I wasn't aware that astrally projecting magicians could hear like that, I mean are we sure? It kinda totally eliminates the need for the Clairaudience spell to listen somewhere else.

[Lethe]

Clairaudience is more efficient. You don't have to go there, because of the spells range and you can't get detected.
Using the psychic effect of manifestation for listening in on people will require some sort of stealth. There are no rules for that, but there are suggestions in the FAQ.

[Reaver]

Been re-reading the Street magic info on spirits, and the only thing we know for sure, is that we know nothing really about spirits. The only thing a take away from reading between the lines is that spirits seem to possess qualities that the summoner expects them to have on a sub-conscience level. What I mean by that is, if a Shaman is summoning a Spirit of Man, and he believes he is summoning some ancient ancestor of his, the spirit very well could have all sorts of ancient knowledge or skills (speaks fluent Salish for example). But if a mage believes spirits are a warping of mana to his will, the spirit he summons will be more like an animation then the Shaman's example.

On page 92 of SM, the write up goes on to state the following:

".... Interaction with technological display devices and simsense such as commlinks and simrigs is even more tenuous. the location of a spirit's visual ability is at the vary least variable; and as there is no nervous system to connect to, the technical diffiulties of making sure an AR setup are far from trivial"


So, this basically tells me that while it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE for a spirit to be able to use simsense or a commlink, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to be able to. Again, this may be a restriction of the summoning mage. Since the mage doesn't believe that the spirit could be able to "understand" a commlink, the spirit can't. In short, the limitations of the mage put limitations on the spirit.
this could explain why some spirits (Buttercup) can appear to use technology and other spirits can't.

So, I guess that leaves us back at square one  And it's upto the GM of individual games to theorize on their own what a spirit can and can not do in their games. For me, I would base my answer on the Mage in question and what he shows me he thinks the spirit is.... Is he using them as mindless lemmings to throw at his enemies? does he hold every spirit he summons with a touch of reverance? Are they tools to make himself stronger? or, are they individuals that he plucks from the ether, crushes their will and bind to his service?

His actions speak louder then words, and his actions reflect his true beliefs, and thus what the spirits can and can not do....

[raggedhalo]

I wasn't aware that astrally projecting magicians could hear like that, I mean are we sure? It kinda totally eliminates the need for the Clairaudience spell to listen somewhere else.

Mystic Adepts, if nothing else, show why you might want Clairaudience - they can't astrally project!

[raggedhalo]

I wasn't aware that astrally projecting magicians could hear like that, I mean are we sure?

The other thing here, since I can't dig out a relevant quote right now, is manifestation (pg. 193, SR4A) - allowing an astrally projecting magician to make themselves visible and audible on the physical plane.  They sure as hell aren't producing soundwaves (as they can't physically interact with anything) and don't appear on recording media.  So we can reasonably infer that astral beings' ability to speak and listen has nothing to do with sound waves.