[Blue_Lion]

The commlink they are referring to is from "War" and is legit (expensive and Availability 40F, but legit).

Oh one of the newer books I have not got around to buying. Kinda not to big a hury after dispointed with the stuff in runners black book.

[JustADude]

The commlink they are referring to is from "War" and is legit (expensive and Availability 40F, but legit).

And that's rather the point. Slapping that, plus the cost of the upgrade packages, in a "used" Implanted Commlink setup would save you a fortune.

[Lethe]

Just a question that popped to my head. Any implants added to any alpha/delta/betaware must be bought at the same grade, but what about commlinks? They're not implants as is? but if I want an alphaware implant commlink, do I need to pay double for the commlink too. In RAW or by the "feel" of the game?

RAW: Commlinks are not listed as cyberware, so they are not available in grades, so you don't have to pay double.
Feel: You pay the essence for the DNI to the commlink, and the socket to hold it. The commlinks themselves are more less all equal size and put into that plugin slot, all using the same interface.

If in a cyberlimb, it should even be very easy to upgrade without any cybertechnology skills(take out, upgrade, put back) - in the skull not so much.

[sway]

Just a question that popped to my head. Any implants added to any alpha/delta/betaware must be bought at the same grade, but what about commlinks? They're not implants as is? but if I want an alphaware implant commlink, do I need to pay double for the commlink too. In RAW or by the "feel" of the game?

RAW: Commlinks are not listed as cyberware, so they are not available in grades, so you don't have to pay double.
Feel: You pay the essence for the DNI to the commlink, and the socket to hold it. The commlinks themselves are more less all equal size and put into that plugin slot, all using the same interface.

If in a cyberlimb, it should even be very easy to upgrade without any cybertechnology skills(take out, upgrade, put back) - in the skull not so much.

How exactly do you figure that commlink implants are not cyberware, RAW? I'm looking in the core book and I'm clearly seeing a "Commlink" entry under headware cyberware and, again, the actual examples of commlinks in Augmentation demonstrates they do indeed have grades (which makes sense because RAW, commlink implants ARE cyberware).

Are cyberware holdout pistols not cyberware? Is Vision Enhancement purchased as cyberware (with or without cybereyes) not cyberware? 

Just because you can buy a non-cyberware version of something doesn't mean its not Cyberware. They are two different things. A cyberware Commlink is a cyberware implant version of a normal commlink... but it is still a cyberware implant, just like Vision Enhancement is a cyberware implant verison of Vision Enhancement. Just because you can buy Vision Enhancement as non-cyberware doesn't mean Vision Enhancement implant isn't cyberware and doesn't come in grades.

[Blue_Lion]

Normal com links are no t cyber ware but once you go the implanted comlink it becomes it. Price for implanted comlink is 2000 + cost of comlink. So if you upgrade the implanted comlink to alpha grade that includes the price of the comlink beeing multipled.

[All4BigGuns]

Normal com links are no t cyber ware but once you go the implanted comlink it becomes it. Price for implanted comlink is 2000 + cost of comlink. So if you upgrade the implanted comlink to alpha grade that includes the price of the comlink beeing multipled.

The 2000 would be multiplied, but the commlink cost would not.

[Blue_Lion]

Normal com links are no t cyber ware but once you go the implanted comlink it becomes it. Price for implanted comlink is 2000 + cost of comlink. So if you upgrade the implanted comlink to alpha grade that includes the price of the comlink beeing multipled.

The 2000 would be multiplied, but the commlink cost would not.

seams rather arbitrary to say the cost of the comlink is part of the omplant cost is it not. As it is built inside using nano technolgy to be less evasive then cutting open your skull to put it in. They are not puting a stock comlink in they are building a copy of one in your head.

[All4BigGuns]

Normal com links are no t cyber ware but once you go the implanted comlink it becomes it. Price for implanted comlink is 2000 + cost of comlink. So if you upgrade the implanted comlink to alpha grade that includes the price of the comlink beeing multipled.

The 2000 would be multiplied, but the commlink cost would not.

seams rather arbitrary to say the cost of the comlink is part of the omplant cost is it not. As it is built inside using nano technolgy to be less evasive then cutting open your skull to put it in. They are not puting a stock comlink in they are building a copy of one in your head.

The only reason--in my opinion--to argue for the comm link itself to be multiplied is to gyp the player out of more resource points.

[sway]

The 2000+commlink cost formula is just there to tell you how much the base cost of the implant. The implant version of a commlink has base cost of 2000 nyuen more than the non-implant version of a commlink. That formula doesn't create a difference between how commlink implant grades work as opposed to all other cyberware, it just reflects that there are many different models of commlink which each have their own cyberware implant version.  Nowhere in the text description of the commlink does it say you paying for two separate things "an implant and a normal commlink". In fact, its text is basically identical Vision Enhancement. 

Commlink: An implanted version of the commlink (p. 327), popular with hackers and salarymen on the go. A Sim Module (modified for hot sim or not) may be implanted at additional cost.

Vision Enhancement: An implanted version of vision enhancement (p. 333).

If it were meant to work differently, it could easily say so. In fact, the core book even goes further and notes that accessories of cyberware implants must be purchased at the same grade as the implant they are attached to. So even if you did somehow believe that you were dealing with an implant and a normal commlink attached to it, the commlink would still be affected by grade cost modification, RAW. Moreover, the ACTUAL examples of in the Augmentation book include alpha and betaware version of the Caliban Fairsight commlink. Do the math, the TOTAL cost of the commlink is clearly augmented by cyberware grade in all the examples. 

This has nothing to do with a desire to gyp players out of resource points, its just how the rules are actually written. My personal opinion as a player and as a somewhat permissive GM would want them to be cheaper too, but I'm just trying to be objective here and answer the "what is" question rather give my opinion of the "what ought to be" question. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere indicating that a commlink implant is somehow special and that part of its cost isn't affected by grade. Not that such an argument is entirely convincing either way. All cyberware versions of things basically cost more then their non-cyberware counterparts and choosing to make them alphaware makes that even more true. There is no reason to view commlinks as an exception to that or to say that treating them the same as every other piece of tech with a cyberware counterpart is an attempt to gyp players out of resource points. Vision Enhancement, again for example cost 300 nyuen for rating 3 non-cyberware, 4,500 nyuen for cyberware version at the same rating, and 9000 for alphaware cyberware at the same rating. An alphaware cyberware version of the same tech cost x30 (that's 8,700 nyuen more) as much as the base non-cyberware tech. So why on Earth would an alphaware cyberware version of a commlink only cost 4,000 nyuen more (undoubtedly a mere fraction of the overall commlink cost)?

[JustADude]

The only reason--in my opinion--to argue for the comm link itself to be multiplied is to gyp the player out of more resource points.

Actually, A4BG, it also means that for an extra 0.04 essence (20% of the base 0.2 Essence cost) you can take a "Used" Standard Grade commlink and halve the cost of the Commlink and the mods and programs that go with it, since they inherit the same "grade" cost multiplier.

That's a massive savings if you're talking about outfitting someone with a 10/10/10/10 Commlink running Rating 10 hacking programs.

[All4BigGuns]

The only reason--in my opinion--to argue for the comm link itself to be multiplied is to gyp the player out of more resource points.

Actually, A4BG, it also means that for an extra 0.04 essence (20% of the base 0.2 Essence cost) you can take a "Used" Standard Grade commlink and halve the cost of the Commlink and the mods and programs that go with it, since they inherit the same "grade" cost multiplier.

That's a massive savings if you're talking about outfitting someone with a 10/10/10/10 Commlink running Rating 10 hacking programs.

That'd be a long time coming after gameplay starts, as in creation, there is no way to get such a commlink or such programs without some seriously huge increases to availability.

[sway]

There is no clear cut indication that Programs/Software are either part of an implant or an accessory to it (I can find no indication of software and programs being considered accessories). Unlike commlinks themselves, which are cyberware (at least when purchased in implant version form).

Their are actually conflicting examples in the books.

On the one hand, the price of encryption of a datalock is multiplied by cyberware grade in an example in Augmentation. However, the encryption rating on a datalock and the actual Encrypt program that can run on a commlink are two different things. This is only troubling because presumably the encryption of a datalock shouldn't be affected by grades if the Encrypt program itself would not be.

On the other hand, we have skillwires which also clearly run software (acti, lingu, and knowsofts) but even with a whole section in Unwired devoted to them, there is no mention that alphaware skillwire system must run alphaware versions of skillsofts. In fact, all the discussions regarding ware sites and patch sites and such seem to imply that software is the same regardless of what grade of cyberware it is run on, its a entirely fungible. Moreover, there is no discussion of what if any difference there is with regards to cyberware grades for a player who wants to program a piece of software. 

As stated before, I can't find a clear cut "what is" answer for this one in the books. Though there is no entry in the books that I can find that treats programs any differently in terms of cost or anything else dependent upon what system they are running on other then the Optimization commlink accessory. My best guess of "what might be" (and also my personal opinion of "what ought to be") is that Programs/Software are NOT affected by grade. I mean, if they were, wouldn't that have some wacky Matrix implications. For example, lets say you have an alphaware cyber-implant commlink that is only compatible with alphaware grade software. How exactly does your software interact with the rest of the Matrix? Can non-alphaware programs run on your commlink's node? Can your programs run on non-alphaware nodes? Are subscriptions affected?

[JustADude]

That'd be a long time coming after gameplay starts, as in creation, there is no way to get such a commlink or such programs without some seriously huge increases to availability.

Still helps on the initial commlink costs as well. Battle Buddy Basic + a bunch of Rating 6 programs isn't exactly cheap.

There is no clear cut indication that Programs/Software are either part of an implant or an accessory to it (I can find no indication of software and programs being considered accessories). Unlike commlinks themselves, which are cyberware (at least when purchased in implant version form).

Hey, I was just going off your earlier quote:

Actually, if you look at Augmentation's listings for cybersuites (factoring in x2 for alpha and x.9 for suite) it would appear that BOTH hardware and software cost are multiplied with alphaware.

Both the Shiawase ExecutiveSuite Line and the SK-Cyberlogician include the cost of the Fairlight Caliban commlink before applying alphaware and suite cost modifications. Likewise, the SK-Cyberlogician includes the cost of the Encryption program for the Datalock before applying alphaware and suite cost modifications.

I suppose the logic is that programing has to be tailor-made to operate and run on the alphaware version of the commlink and thus is more costly.

[sway]

Yeah, I already admitted my initial error in equating a datalock's encryption rating with the actual Encrypt program. The datalock doesn't actually run any program, its just been encrypted... and apparently the cost of its encryption rating is modified by cyberware grades. Admittedly, I find it hard to figure why a datalock's encryption rating would be affected by cyberware grade when the Encrypt program run on a cyberware comlink or any soft run on a Datajack or Skillwires would not be. However, by the same token, I find it impossible to believe that programs and softs are meant to be affected by grades and yet no mention of this is made in Unwired or Augmentation at all. Likewise, it boggles the mind to imagine that programs run smoothly across varying corporations models and rating levels of commlinks and nexi, but not across cyberware grades. 

[JustADude]

Guess I missed your post talking about the error when I was skimming on my smartphone.

Honestly, though, I've had to roll my eyes and go "okay, whatever" at Strict RAW interpretations of the rules breaking from reality often enough that I find it hard to be properly incredulous these days when I see it happening.