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Ares "Viper" Slivergun question

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JustADude

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« on: (03:13:26/03-11-12) »
Okay, just a quick check here:

I've got an older copy of SR4A... one that still allows Strength 12 for Bows... and it says the Ares "Viper" has AP +2. However, both Chummer and Hero Lab say it's +5. Was there an Eratta somewhere, or did two programs manage to get it wrong in the same way?
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Makki

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« Reply #1 on: (03:39:27/03-11-12) »
all Flechette have been errata'd/corrected to +2DV/+5AP

JustADude

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« Reply #2 on: (03:42:29/03-11-12) »
all Flechette have been errata'd/corrected to +2DV/+5AP

*mutter*  :'(
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Angelone

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« Reply #3 on: (03:49:33/03-11-12) »
There is Armor piercing flechete in WAR! pg 156 it's +2DV no AP mod but -20% range.
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JustADude

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« Reply #4 on: (05:23:15/03-11-12) »
There is Armor piercing flechete in WAR! pg 156 it's +2DV no AP mod but -20% range.

Right, but if a Slivergun was +2 with regular Flechettes, it would be -3 with the AP Flechettes, vs +5 and 0.
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Crash_00

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« Reply #5 on: (09:10:14/03-11-12) »
The newer versions of it all have +5 listed.

Technically, I think all the listings with +5 are "wrong" because following the standard rules, the +5 should be added to the standard -1 of the heavy pistol for a +4 total (this isn't just a viper slivergun thing, almost all flechette entries replace AP with +5  instead of modifying it by +5).

While -1 AP isn't that big of a deal, it's really the principal of it that bugs me. It really should be +4 and -1, but it's not enough of an issue to redo the stats for.

You're really better off slapping AP flechettes in a gun with AP already. For example, the Super Warhawk would be putting out 8P(f)/-2AP with AP flechettes, and most battle rifles will be putting out 9P(f) with -1 or -2 AP. My personal favorite is the Elephant Rifle for a whopping 11P(f)/-1AP (12P(f) if you blow both barrels). Combined with it being impact armor (which is often lower for NPCs since they don't usually cap armor as much as runners), it makes things super deadly. And their is just something funny about military grade elephant gun rounds.

Mx

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« Reply #6 on: (09:52:15/03-11-12) »
Technically, I think all the listings with +5 are "wrong" because following the standard rules, the +5 should be added to the standard -1 of the heavy pistol for a +4 total (this isn't just a viper slivergun thing, almost all flechette entries replace AP with +5  instead of modifying it by +5).
This is true for shotguns that aren't fletchette only, but for those that are and especially the sliver gun its really not.
There is no base AP for those guns, especially the sliver gun(again).
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Crash_00

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« Reply #7 on: (10:29:26/03-11-12) »
It's a heavy pistol. Non-Flechette Heavy Pistols are a base -1 pretty much across the board, with the exceptions being -2 to my knowledge. Given the Slivergun has a slightly higher damage, I would attribute that to the balance of  the Only Flechette limitation. The real point here is that they didn't account for base AP in any weapon when giving flechette statistics. The slivergun does have base stats, they just aren't in the book (the book actually states that the stats have already been modified for flechette ammunition). If they left off the weapon's base AP in every other case and modified the stats for flechette just like they do in every other case, then they did in fact leave it out.

Unless in some wonderful screwball adventure the editor only modified the slivergun by its base AP and nothing else. With the current state of things, it's pretty much a toss up, but my weight is definitely on the left out side of things.

JustADude

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« Reply #8 on: (01:09:53/03-12-12) »
So, Crash, I'm not gonna be greedy and ask for the pre-errata (aka -3 base AP for +2 with (f) ammo) version of the Slivergun... though it would be nice... but, since you're the GM and it bugs you anyway, do you think you could see your way clear to giving the Slivergun the standard -1 base AP for a Heavy Pistol for our game.

EDIT: Or, of course, the same AP as the only other "base" 6P pistol, the Warhawk.
« Last Edit: (02:37:37/03-12-12) by JustADude »
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #9 on: (01:26:37/03-12-12) »
The newer versions of it all have +5 listed.

Technically, I think all the listings with +5 are "wrong" because following the standard rules, the +5 should be added to the standard -1 of the heavy pistol for a +4 total (this isn't just a viper slivergun thing, almost all flechette entries replace AP with +5  instead of modifying it by +5).

While -1 AP isn't that big of a deal, it's really the principal of it that bugs me. It really should be +4 and -1, but it's not enough of an issue to redo the stats for.

You're really better off slapping AP flechettes in a gun with AP already. For example, the Super Warhawk would be putting out 8P(f)/-2AP with AP flechettes, and most battle rifles will be putting out 9P(f) with -1 or -2 AP. My personal favorite is the Elephant Rifle for a whopping 11P(f)/-1AP (12P(f) if you blow both barrels). Combined with it being impact armor (which is often lower for NPCs since they don't usually cap armor as much as runners), it makes things super deadly. And their is just something funny about military grade elephant gun rounds.

In the case of flechette ammo for weapons that aren't flechette-only, wouldn't the base weapon AP still apply before the ammo's AP anyway? To my knowledge, the only ammo that entirely replaced the weapon AP with it's own is Stick-n-Shock (though that'd be kinda broke if it were half impact minus the weapon AP).

Edit: Nevermind...just checked into it fully. That's bulldrek and needlessly nerfs something that didn't need it in the first place. I think I'm going to rule such things away in much the same way as I disregard this "German Errata" drek.
« Last Edit: (01:36:01/03-12-12) by All4BigGuns »
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Crash_00

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« Reply #10 on: (10:48:33/03-12-12) »
Quote
So, Crash, I'm not gonna be greedy and ask for the pre-errata (aka -3 base AP for +2 with (f) ammo) version of the Slivergun... though it would be nice... but, since you're the GM and it bugs you anyway, do you think you could see your way clear to giving the Slivergun the standard -1 base AP for a Heavy Pistol for our game.

I'll probably just leave everything at the book stats for simplicities sake so that no one at the table gets confused. The Slivergun is still better than the average heavy pistol (between the BF mode, 30 round cap, internal suppressor, and +1DV over most).

UmaroVI

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« Reply #11 on: (11:30:41/03-12-12) »
As-is, the slivergun has a narrow niche but at least it isn't a nonexistent one. If you can supply the recoil compensation yourself (high strength/foot anchors/cyberarm gyromount/etc), it's a very solid pistol since it effectively has 6P/-0 and inherent BF that isn't limited to narrow-only. You can mod a Warhawk to have BF and get a marginally better base damage, but that's 4 mod slots and it has a significantly smaller ammo capacity.

Mx

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« Reply #12 on: (11:40:36/03-12-12) »
The slivergun does have base stats, they just aren't in the book (the book actually states that the stats have already been modified for flechette ammunition)
Those base stats quite obviously being 6P AP0, not that it really matters for anything.
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Crash_00

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« Reply #13 on: (12:01:11/03-12-12) »
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Those base stats quite obviously being 6P AP0, not that it really matters for anything.
As I pointed out above, it's not an obvious case that that's what the base stats should be. In fact, if you read the post above, I stated that either they got only the Slivergun right (unlike other (F) weapons stat blocks) or the base should be -1 AP.

If you've got a source I've missed, I'd love to see it, but I don't know of any stat blocks that actually factor flechette damage right with a base AP modifier.

The problem is also present with the Mossberg AM-CMDT. It's a flechette only shotgun that (if you take the stats given) is worse at firing flechettes than any shotguns except the Street Sweeper (the only shotgun with non-standard stats) and Remington 990 (the only other one to list it's flechette mode). Unless the Mossberg breaks the mold to be worse at firing it's restricted ammunition, I would think it's oversight.