[CanRay]

True, but this also isn't Paranoia-Run, either, so I can see how some people might get upset over something like this.

Let's face it, not every role player is that mature a thinker.

[All4BigGuns]

Maturity has nothing to do with it. I play games to have fun, not to constantly get reamed by some new "screw you" toy of the GM's. While such a thing may be "realistic", it's a game, not a reality simulator.

[Mirikon]

Granted, CanRay. But there is a difference between 'not being happy', and 'telling the DM where he can shove his game and walking out'. And a smart GM would probably find a way to make it up to the player somehow, especially if they didn't act like a jerk about it. If the team did a good job on the run, the Johnson might even pay for the PAB treatment in return for system logs on the event. Something that comes to mind is perhaps allowing them to make a contact while in 'rehab'. Perhaps a trid star is there after a case of 'exhaustion', and they hit it off. Or perhaps an Ares executive is there, and is willing to cut a deal on some gear in return for details of the system, and your system logs of the attack with the psychotropic ice.

And Guns, who said anything about 'constantly'? Such things should be rare, and a good DM will foreshadow a bit before they actually run into them. It isn't a "screw you" toy,  it is an insidious piece of work that is used to guard high security nodes where ordinarily your brain would be fried just for peeking. Sometimes you lose. Sometimes losing messes you up bad, meaning you need to shell out resources in order to recover. Done once in a blue moon, it is something that reinforces the true nature of the Sixth World, without becoming a case of a DM screwing the players just because. I have never suggested this should be a commonly used program. In fact, I have said several times that it should only be on the highest security nodes.

[All4BigGuns]

That is the sort of thing, however, that a particularly bad GM will just take hold of and use in incessantly. Better to just not create it in the first place to keep it out of those GMs hands. Kinda the whole "one bad egg ruins it for everyone" type deal.

For the most part though, I think this should be an "agree to disagree" area.

[Mirikon]

If a DM is looking to screw the players, they don't have to go outside the core book to find plenty of ways.

This forum is for tools that DMs can use, should they choose to. When, how, and to what degree they use them is what separates good DMs from bad. A DM who wants to screw the players just to screw them is not going to have any trouble doing so, whether this is out there or not.

[All4BigGuns]

If a DM is looking to screw the players, they don't have to go outside the core book to find plenty of ways.

This forum is for tools that DMs can use, should they choose to. When, how, and to what degree they use them is what separates good DMs from bad. A DM who wants to screw the players just to screw them is not going to have any trouble doing so, whether this is out there or not.

I'll grant you that. I just twitch when I see something that can make matters worse, but like I said, this seems to be an "agree to disagree" point.

[Tagz]

Personally I don't like this one bit.  It's an extremely harsh penalty and not difficult to impose on a player.  Not only that, but if the players's primary role in the game is a hacker, it creates a disincentive to act in their primary role and punishment if they do so.  I can't imagine that Horizon's so great at keeping a lid on this program that others wouldn't copy it.

What does a hacker player do if they don't have the 10 karma on hand to buy off the negative quality?  They essentially don't play in their role (cannot even default on the skill) until enough sessions have gone by to get the karma to buy it off.  If the game is the sort that the GM doesn't hand out karma until the end of a run, not a session, that could be a very long time (up to 6 sessions at my table, and then the most a player has ever gotten from a single run was 12 karma).

I'd like it far more if instead it granted a negative quality that required a Composure(2 or 3) check to make a hacking attempt.  That makes it so that a player may continue to play their role, albeit with a disadvantage that can be bought off.

[Mirikon]

Rule 1 of hacking high security nodes: Don't be seen.
Rule 2 of hacking high security nodes: If you are seen, don't stick around to play with the elite spider.
Rule 3 of hacking high security nodes: A good biofeedback filter is your friend.
Rule 4 of hacking high security nodes: Do your legwork to find out what kind of IC is used and plan accordingly.

Really, is this so much worse than a spider using Black Hammer? Being dead makes you far less able to perform your role than a negative quality.

Paying karma is not the only way to remove the quality, as you would know if you'd actually read the section of Unwired that deals with psychotropic program options. Regardless, however, this is no different from the corpsec tossing a grenade down the cramped hallway to catch the team in the chunky salsa effect. Shadowrun is not meant to be sweetness and light. Corpsec guards use lethal force all the time, and actively try to kill the characters to the best of their ability, using actual tactics. And there are times when a team member will go down in the middle of a run, and be unable to fulfill their part of the plan. What do you do then? Do you just give up and go home? Or do you overcome, adapt?

Do me a favor, and reread both the program options and the program as I described it. If the hacker is getting hit with this, they're already either going to be getting knocked out altogether, or going to have to use cybercombat to dump the spider so he can jack out before reinforcements arrive. By the time this thing's going off, the time for hacking is over, and the time for getting out of the system before your brain is fried is here. If they were using Black Hammer, instead of Blackout, you'd be DEAD, not simply unconscious.

No plan survives contact with the enemy. Sometimes, that plan falling to pieces leaves a team member incapable of doing their job, because 'sucking chest wound' tends to interfere with, say, casting spells, driving, or aiming your gun, and so the team has to adapt as they get the hell out of dodge. This is no different. Would you cry foul if the group didn't do proper legwork before assaulting a MCT zero zone, and found out the hard way that there was monowire strung between certain plants in the courtyard, or that some of the 'flowers' sprayed your toxic gas of choice?

And if they play it well, you might reward them with some extra karma, and perhaps getting a contact of theirs to hook them up with some time in a PAB unit to get that quality erased without paying the karma (for a bit of nuyen, of course), or even the Mr. Johnson, if they were professional about the job.

[nakano]

Just as a general comment with regard to this program, it could be far worse.  Compare it to a Blackout+Trace, where the corp picks up Bob the hacker and he is never seen again, or simply a Black Hammer that scrambles his brain and flatlines him.

I play and run the game to have fun, and part of that fun is finding creative ways to mess with my players that are not the easy button of "You character is dead, make a new one."  There are some roll-players that hate this type of effect but most role-players I have at my tables love it. 

Here is the thing, if yah cannot trust your GM to do their best to make it fun, why the are hell you wasting your time at their table?

[farothel]

And if you come with something like that to Mr. J, especially a AAA Mr. J, he will probably pay for your therapy if you provide him with a copy of the thing.  At least you can negotiate for it.

[CanRay]

And if you come with something like that to Mr. J, especially a AAA Mr. J, he will probably pay for your therapy if you provide him with a copy of the thing.  At least you can negotiate for it.

Of course, your therapy will come with an extra cost. 

[Sichr]

hh. I can see even nicer variant of this...Player in my group got Scorched quality after being flatlined by BlackIC, and using Peace as inspiration, he got Uneducated negative quality. It is quite difficult to use any of your hacking skills...when you are illiterate...

[Shango]

I think this is a great program.
The karma loss is no different than say, a mage getting his power focus taken away.
Heck, cheaper for anything above a level 1 focus.
The program must be used with care by the GM or you WILL have upset players.
But then again if you are poking around in the deep dark frozen nodes of a tripple A corp you gotta expect something like this.

-Erich

[Mason]

Alternative version: A 5 BP quality which subtracts 1 from all Matrix Actions, comes in ranks, but all levels are still 5 BP. Every time Peace smacks you down and you don't resist it, you gain a rank. Conditioning removes ranks at a time, so the therapy takes awhile. while the 10 Karma option gets rid of it.

I am in no way saying my version is better or worse. Just had the idea as I read this thread.