[beowulf_of_wa]

ok i've tried to read that statement 8 times now and still can't wrap my brain around what you're trying to say.

4 attributes to commlinks, 2 are hardware (processor for response and wireless transmitter for signal) and 2 are software (system and firewall) running on that hardware, so in spite of our wishes, the software will be limited by the hardware capability.

[All4BigGuns]

Hey, I agree with you. I was just giving the argument I see being used for the other view. Though a lot who argue that view will probably claim "overpowered" or "imbalanced" too.

[Lethe]

under matrix attributes:

the other two are software running on that hardware.

firewall and system running on that hardware. NOT firewall is running on that system.

under firewall:

Firewall is the device’s built-in security software

it is a software, like the system, yes, but its built-in + apart from the system

firewall doesn't count to the processor limit and is not limited by system.
also not limited by response. system is, because it says so under system. but not firewall.
firewall is a quick an efficient traffic filter, nothing like a big clumsy system.

firewall and system are both listed in a table with matrix programs, but i am sure the developers were just lazy to put them in an extra table.
the text description of those two softwares speak otherwise.

[CanRay]

Firewall has it's own built-in processor, like video cards do today, done.

[Sichr]

And on the other side, since there is Response listed as the hardware capability of the whole comlink, IMO there is no way to interpret this that Firewall should be running on higher response. And since System is limited by response, so is Firewall.
Also...note that r6 response/signal upgrade is availability 16, so for character creation you can use this only if you have Restricted gear quality

Firewall has it's own built-in processor, like video cards do today, done.

on the other side upgrading Firewall:

Upgrading a device is simply a matter of having the proper hardware module (for Response and Signal) or software package (for Firewall and System).

[Sentinemodo]

availabilty is irrelevant. it only serve to establish difficulty of getting something that is.
in my games you cannot have firewall 6 on system 1 and that's it.

[Sichr]

On the other side, there is lot of Sample nodes in unwired with Firewall higher than System rating or response...
Some errata on this? Or FAQ?

[Lethe]

in my games you cannot have firewall 6 on system 1 and that's it.

probably because you think a firewall works on the system.
but actually it works beside(independent from) it.
a firewall is like well configured router, you don't need high end hardware for that.

[Sichr]

Does the maximum program rating limited by the System rating apply to Firewall?

No; System does not limit the ratings of Firewall since it is a Matrix Attribute. Agents, Common Use, Hacking, and all other types of programs running on the device are limited by the System rating.

And since Response limit is only listed for System RAW, that means firewall can act independently on it. Ok. I`ve been convinced...

[Demerzel]

On the other side, there is lot of Sample nodes in unwired with Firewall higher than System rating or response...
Some errata on this? Or FAQ?

The FAQ exists and is explicit in this regard.
http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/

However, many people disregard the official FAQ because it also contains answers that appear to be directly contradictory to the rules as written.

The part that is explicit states:

Does the maximum program rating limited by the System rating apply to Firewall?

No; System does not limit the ratings of Firewall since it is a Matrix Attribute. Agents, Common Use, Hacking, and all other types of programs running on the device are limited by the System rating.

[Lethe]

However, many people disregard the official FAQ because it also contains answers that appear to be directly contradictory to the rules as written.

Thanks for clarification.
The FAQ is slightly outdated and in situation where its contradictory, i prefer more recent books.
In cases where the rules in books missing some explanation and give space to argue, i consider the FAQ as legit RAI at least. .. as in this case ;-)

[All4BigGuns]

However, many people disregard the official FAQ because it also contains answers that appear to be directly contradictory to the rules as written.

Thanks for clarification.
The FAQ is slightly outdated and in situation where its contradictory, i prefer more recent books.
In cases where the rules in books missing some explanation and give space to argue, i consider the FAQ as legit RAI at least. .. as in this case ;-)

Whereas I need something other than the FAQ for anything. The contradictory elements of the FAQ render the entire document entirely unreliable in my opinion, so I disregard the whole thing. Should it ever be fixed so that it does not contradict the rules on ANY aspect, then I will consider it, but until then, it may as well not exist.

[Sentinemodo]

On the other side, there is lot of Sample nodes in unwired with Firewall higher than System rating or response...
Some errata on this? Or FAQ?

The same unwired lists a lot of examples of nodes with System greater than Response. There are no examples violating the rule of Response >= System >= Program. I do believe that it was another author that written Core and Unwired, with other intents. I do think however that in case of doubts core is overriding other rulebooks.

Since there is no direct RAW that states that Firewall is exception from the rule I see no reason to rule otherwise.  I believe that Response (hardware) limits software (System and Firewall) that can be run upon it. It's simple enough to upgrade response to install higher firewall, so it's not a showstopper for anyone willing to do so. 

[Lethe]

Since there is no direct RAW that states that Firewall is exception from the rule I see no reason to rule otherwise.  I believe that Response (hardware) limits software (System and Firewall) that can be run upon it. It's simple enough to upgrade response to install higher firewall, so it's not a showstopper for anyone willing to do so.

according to your way of ruling and since both(system and firewall) are listed in the matrix programs table, they will both count for the process limit in your games? meaning a response 2  link without any other programs, automatically gets reduced to response 1 due to overload?

[Sentinemodo]

Firewall is part of the Operating System. System and Firewall attributes are derived from the Operating System (the last sentence is from the despised Unwired pg48).

The processor limit is based on System attribute. So no, neither System nor Firewall program affect the Response, but all are limited by Response rating.

The logic is simple. No hardware can run at full capacity software that is designed to run on better machine. No software component can be run at the higher rating than the frame.

RL examples.
You can run win xp on 386, just don't expect it to work at the speed of running it on laptop from 2002. On the other hand there is no noticable performance upgrade on running it on laptop from 2010.
You can open old version attachments of excel in old powerpoint, you can't open newer ones unless you strip them of tags, that old version cannot interpret.

SR examples.
You can run System 6, Firewall 6 Operating System at Response 3. But the effective attributes will be reduced to 3.
You can run Attack 6 program, on System 3, but the effective rating would be reduced to 3.
And the discussed example. You can run Firewall 6 at System 3, but the effective attribute will be reduced to 3. Note that in Core no OS have Firewall higher than System and none of the example runners have links that despite some of them having modifed commlinks violate the rule of
Response >=System>=Firewall,Program ratings