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Bows and their DV

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JustADude

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« Reply #15 on: <01-19-12/1336:25> »
A strength 8 bow does same damage as a god damm assault cannon, that nerf is absolutely justified.
As bow's that do more damage then tank cannons make absolutely no sense what so ever, but yes i kinda agree that the strength limit is stupid, they should have just changed the damage code to half strength + x.

Gotta remember the difference in AP, though. Against a nice sturdy armored car with 16 armor, like a Roadmaster, the bow would need 6 net hits to be able to do anything, while the Assault Cannon would do it with even the minimum 1 net hit needed to get the round on target. Most squishy human targets would probably take stun damage as well, representing bruised ribs from a big honking plasteel rod smacking into them at high speed and failing to go through the armor.

And yeah, if they'd made it (1/2 Strength + X), I'd be a lot happier. My big bitch isn't really the end-result of the damage, as much as how low the strength cap is, given what I know about material science.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #16 on: <01-19-12/1725:03> »
Doesn't a sniper rifle cut through armor pretty well and loaded with APDS even more for like -5 armor? It's got an advantage over a bow, not only shooting faster, but takes out more armor. I'm curious what kind of damage they'd give a crossbow, cus those suckers are worse than bows.

Haha! I'm totally going to be making a character that uses a crossbow in shadowrun! :D
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #17 on: <01-19-12/1812:42> »
But an average user, like your typical non-English Medieval bowmen or even your typical Native American, not so much...
Don't over-sell the English just because of Agincourt.  There were plenty of groups across the world at that time who were 'elite archers'.  You want to really see something bad?  Take the Mongolians -- firing from horseback, and using a bow that could fire more than half a kilometer, twice the range of the English longbow...
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ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #18 on: <01-19-12/1833:05> »
Good point. What I was trying to do was contrast "elite" bowmen with rank and file conscripts and hunters.

JustADude

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« Reply #19 on: <01-19-12/1921:24> »
Good point. What I was trying to do was contrast "elite" bowmen with rank and file conscripts and hunters.

Sooooo... Agility 6, Archery 6 with a specialty in "Obscenely Powerful Bows" doesn't count as "elite", then? Remember, the scale in Shadowrun is pretty condensed; 6+6+Specialty is about as high as you can get as a human without going into Qualities.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #20 on: <01-19-12/2020:31> »
xD ^

That's 14 dice :D Good luck dodging with an average of 3 reaction!
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

JustADude

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« Reply #21 on: <01-19-12/2049:59> »
xD ^

That's 14 dice :D Good luck dodging with an average of 3 reaction!

And that's just an average highly skilled human... now make it a SURGE'd Ork with Metagenetic Improvement Agility and Genetic Heritage (Optimization: Agility), Muscle Toner 4 and Suprathyroid gland, to hard-cap at 12 Agility and get up to Strength 8. Now, tack on Aptitude Archery (natural 7 Skill) Reflex Recorder Archery (8 Skill). Now, Awaken the guy and give him Quick Draw and 2 points of Improved Ability (Archery) (10 Skill). And, of course, don't forget the Smartlink and Specialty (4 more dice).

That's 26 dice to shoot, with an average of 8-9 hits... 14-15 if you spend Edge to reroll failures.

So, since this is probably a silent ambush coming at you from out at the back end of Extreme range (480 meters on a Str 8 bow, IIRC), and therefore there's no chance to evade, that archer could give someone a seriously bad day.

Of course, that's saying the best archer in the world could maybe get an arrow into the engine block of a Roadmaster on his best day, while a sniper with a Barrett firing APDS, using the same setup, just has to make the bullet connect.
« Last Edit: <01-19-12/2110:32> by JustADude »
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CanRay

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« Reply #22 on: <01-19-12/2233:33> »
Trollbow with Dikoted Arrows.  :P
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JustADude

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« Reply #23 on: <01-20-12/0049:30> »
Trollbow with Dikoted Arrows.  :P

Dikoat went away in 4th; I think they assume that by this point it comes standard on everything.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #24 on: <01-20-12/0209:58> »
I keep hearing that presumption; I think it's just flat-out wrong.
Pananagutan & End/Line

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redwolf

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« Reply #25 on: <01-20-12/0242:33> »
But an average user, like your typical non-English Medieval bowmen or even your typical Native American, not so much...
Don't over-sell the English just because of Agincourt.  There were plenty of groups across the world at that time who were 'elite archers'.  You want to really see something bad?  Take the Mongolians -- firing from horseback, and using a bow that could fire more than half a kilometer, twice the range of the English longbow...
/quote]half k?are you sure, and remember both carssy and agincourt happen in rainy days. if you use a bow even a recorve  from a horse back you dont get the pull you need and the mongols useed  hit &run tactic so they worked from clos range
yes i'm red and it's not blood, and no i'm no comy i'm just red, so are you going for that pis' or going away!!!

JustADude

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« Reply #26 on: <01-20-12/0259:35> »
I keep hearing that presumption; I think it's just flat-out wrong.

If you have a better theory as to why, if it's not standard, Dikote isn't listed anywhere in the SR4 books as an available mod / upgrade, then please do elucidate.

Until you, or anyone else, can provide another explanation that does better than "It exists as an optional process, they just don't have stats for it," then the theory that it's become standard is the de facto correct explanation, being the only one that fits the observable facts without becoming unnecessarily convoluted. Those facts, of course, being 1) Dikote existed in SR3 and previous as an upgrade option, and 2) Dikote does not exist as an upgrade in SR4.

Also, -1 for you for bad etiquette. If you're going to rebut someone's position with a blanket negation like that, you need to follow up your assertion with supporting evidence and/or an alternate position, otherwise you're just going "Nuh-uh! Is not!"
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #27 on: <01-20-12/0320:56> »
*sighs*  Fine.  Since you require it:

The issue is playability and game balance.  The argument against SR4 dikote is that in SR2 and SR3, in comparison to the much tighter damage codes in SR4, it didn't do much. 

I was actually looking at Dikoting as something to write up for the 1st issue of the Dumpshock Datahaven, and I talked with a few folks about it back then.

Mechanically, Dikoting became a problem due to the much narrower definitions of damage codes.  Dikoting was cool, but it didn't provide a massive bonus in SR2/3.  Now though, a +1 to DV is huge.  It just doesn't fit as well into the current iteration of the rules, sadly.

Unofficially, the explanation I give is that Dikoting has become superfluous.  Modern techniques at metalcrafting have made weapons and armor innately stronger, and while you can still spend the nuyen to Dikote something, it doesn't actually improve it any because the material is already at the Dikote level.  All Dikote really does now is "bling it up".

This is your explanation.  Mine is simply that those writing the rules have not yet decided on which way this is going -- mainly because for the most part dikote has not yet been mentioned.  If somewhere in the game designer conversation on ammo, modifications, or armor it said, 'for those of you who miss dikote, it's gone.  <Insert explanation here>', sure, it no longer exists.  Instead, in all the publications to date, it's mentioned precisely once -- in the game description of the Aztechnology Cuanmitztli Main Battle Tank ('dikote mesh plating', War!, p.168) -- which means that the game designers have yet to make a hard decision.

My argument for it is that every other type of weapon has an armor-piercing (APDS or AV) technology.  My reply to Bull's post above was as follows:

That makes sense if there's nothing else comparable, but -- like with the original Dikote -- there is: APDS / AV rounds.  My interpretation would simply be that a) dikote adds +1 Impact only to armor with ceramic plates (i.e. you're dikoting the plating), and b) adds the 'Anti-Vehicular' characteristic (-4 AP vs. people, -6 AP vs. vehicles and barriers) to a ceramic or high-temperature metal (steel, titanium) edged melee, thrown, or projectile (as in arrows/bolts) weapon.  It cannot be added to any sort of high-speed projectile, such as firearm/gunpowder ammunition or gauss rifle ammunition; get AV rounds if you want that.

Anyhow.  The debate continues from there.  My apologies that I didn't want to repeat the issue.
« Last Edit: <01-20-12/0324:46> by The Wyrm Ouroboros »
Pananagutan & End/Line

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redwolf

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« Reply #28 on: <01-20-12/0429:45> »
But an average user, like your typical non-English Medieval bowmen or even your typical Native American, not so much...
Don't over-sell the English just because of Agincourt.  There were plenty of groups across the world at that time who were 'elite archers'.  You want to really see something bad?  Take the Mongolians -- firing from horseback, and using a bow that could fire more than half a kilometer, twice the range of the English longbow...
/quote]half k?are you sure, and remember both carssy and agincourt happen in rainy days. if you use a bow even a recorve  from a horse back you dont get the pull you need and the mongols useed  hit &run tactic so they worked from clos range
  sorry but do to f.u  by me my post is part of the quote
yes i'm red and it's not blood, and no i'm no comy i'm just red, so are you going for that pis' or going away!!!

Zilfer

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« Reply #29 on: <01-20-12/1442:35> »
You need to make sure your typing outside of the [/qoute] part.... and not inside it. ^

XD
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man