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The current situation with Dragons

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Wakshaani

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« Reply #240 on: (11:52:02/05-22-12) »
Dammit Patrick, why are you so good at this?

I didn't even think about that angle.

Nuts!

(Reminds me, did you ever look over that Thing I sent you? Turned it all over to Jason last night for first-pass editing, but feedback's always nice.)

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #241 on: (15:10:33/05-22-12) »
Dammit Patrick, why are you so good at this?

I didn't even think about that angle.
I'm not just another pretty face, and I don't have HMHVV as my only focus. It just looks like that from most perspectives. :)

I've actually been thinking about things like this for a long time. I just never trusted myself to pitch them because I lack self-discipline.
Quote
(Reminds me, did you ever look over that Thing I sent you? Turned it all over to Jason last night for first-pass editing, but feedback's always nice.)
Got it, but have not had time to review it; life's been interesting of late. I'll try to correct that ASAP and give you some feedback. Sorry.
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CanRay

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« Reply #242 on: (15:58:19/05-22-12) »
Wait, you have a pretty face, Patrick?  ;D
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #243 on: (00:47:33/05-23-12) »
No worries on the feedback, it's a favor after all. :)

As for teh pretty face? I'm not the one to judge. I have a mug straight out of a Dick Tracy comic. :)

The Enclave

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« Reply #244 on: (05:46:00/05-31-12) »
Could someone please explain to me why exactly dragons are so powerful? Okay, I know it may sound like a stupid question but I get that they probably have some kind of magical defense that means you can't just shoot them with a surface-to-air missile or something. In their true forms they surely can't have had a civilisation of their own, they can't have worked masonry or developed a written language because they're just too damn big; when they're actually dragons their justs large, flying, magical lizards right?

Take Rhonabwy, he wakes up, murders 150 British citizens in a rampage and then just shurgs it off to the world and finances rebuilding the town - with what money exactly? Did the dragons horde massive amounts of human treasure before they went into hibernation? HM Government would have been required to do something about this and it was only just after the awakening, February 2012, so I really can't believe there reaction would be anything less than hostile or military in-nature.

EDIT: I just don't get why they got so powerful or why they were so feared when they first emerged that they could do what-ever they liked.
EDIT2: Can a dragon fly faster than a Evo Reckoner or a Mig-63? Just asking.
« Last Edit: (05:53:02/05-31-12) by The Enclave »

Mirikon

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« Reply #245 on: (07:00:57/05-31-12) »
Dragons are physically powerful and tough. On that count alone, they're much more than a match for most metahumans. Great dragons have lived for thousands of years. Ghostwalker, for instance, has been around since the SECOND world. And that means they've had a LOT of times to develop magic.

And just because they don't have masonry or a written language doesn't mean they don't have civilization. Dragon culture is a very complex thing. I'd suggest you find a copy of the Earthdawn book Dragons, which discusses Dragon culture in some detail.

As for their wealth? Dragons do have hordes. And yes, they are full of all kinds of shinies that can be converted into nuyen very easily.
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The Enclave

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« Reply #246 on: (10:15:02/05-31-12) »
Dragons are physically powerful and tough. On that count alone, they're much more than a match for most metahumans. Great dragons have lived for thousands of years. Ghostwalker, for instance, has been around since the SECOND world. And that means they've had a LOT of times to develop magic.

Right, that leads me to another question. Is the supposed power of dragons more because of the resources they command rather than their inherant abilities? Yeah of course a dragon is physically stronger than any metahuman, but the metahuman isn't going to be alone or fighting mano-a-mano; national armies, tanks, fighter jets and unmaned drones.

I'm not trying facetious, I get that they do have this power so they got it in some manner; maybe it's just because they don't really interest me that I question them?

Wakshaani

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« Reply #247 on: (10:21:09/05-31-12) »
In terms of pure physical power, a Dragon is pretty much a big dinosaur that can also fly and breathe fire. In and of itself, impressive, but nothing *too* horrible. Something you'd cross the street to avoid, or more likely stay a block or three away from, but that's it.

BUT.

Dragons are smart ... vastly, vastly smarter than any human that's ever lived. They're effectively immortal, so not only are they amazingly smart, they've had plenty of time to learn. And what's their favorite subject? Magic! The sheer power of magic at their command tips the scales from "Kinda scary" to "Can raze a city". A dragon only flies around 60 mph normally, but when they summon a force 12 air spirit, it can move them faster while also bringing buffeting storm winds which make aircraft risky and can disrupt missiles. They use illusions, so that you're attacking the wrong place (Remember that if you can't see it, magic can't effect it!), have magical shields to repel attacks that *do* get to them, and, otherwise, are just crazy powerful magicians who can shrug off high end drain and who have a nice bullet-resistant mass behind them as well.

In a straight up fight, a jet can outfly and out-shoot one, but when they start 'cheating' with magic, it gets ugly. It's possible to down one, but it requires a LOT of planning and prep-time.

Sichr

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« Reply #248 on: (11:15:17/05-31-12) »
Dragons are physically powerful and tough. On that count alone, they're much more than a match for most metahumans. Great dragons have lived for thousands of years. Ghostwalker, for instance, has been around since the SECOND world. And that means they've had a LOT of times to develop magic.

Right, that leads me to another question. Is the supposed power of dragons more because of the resources they command rather than their inherant abilities? Yeah of course a dragon is physically stronger than any metahuman, but the metahuman isn't going to be alone or fighting mano-a-mano; national armies, tanks, fighter jets and unmaned drones.

I'm not trying facetious, I get that they do have this power so they got it in some manner; maybe it's just because they don't really interest me that I question them?

After some kind of Idiot in Tehran declared Jihad on awakened beings, Aden appeared above the city...since his nest is somewhere around Ararat mountain IMO it was nextdoor to him
And with something like:

If you want to fight, look what you are facing!

he anihilated whole Tehran city. Using Magic, Powers, Physical strenght...whatever...he razed it to the ground, without even showing any interrest in human beings. Think about it as a display of his powers. At least those he is willing to display...

TheNarrator

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« Reply #249 on: (11:59:00/05-31-12) »
Another thing to consider, on the purely physical side, is that while a dragon is nowhere near as fast as a fighter jet, it's quite possibly more maneuverable (since their flight is inherently magical, they can greatly abuse the laws of physics and aerodynamics) and probably more durable. (Much more durable in the case of a great dragon.)

A Western Dragon has a Body 15 and Hardened Armor 8 plus Mystic Armor 8 (for a total of 16). That's about as much as a light armored vehicle or armored personnel carrier. A Western Great Dragon has at least Body 25 and a armor of 24 (more if they cast an Armor spell on themselves) which is not quite in main battle tank territory, but it's close. SAMs aren't really intended to engage hardened targets, and that's just about enough dice to have chance of shrugging off the anti-aircraft missiles in War.

And that's before we factor in the magic, which is considerable. You've seen, I'm sure, how much damage a mage can wreak on a group of mundanes in the game with a Magic 6. Hestaby has a Magic 36. That's enough to frag those aforementioned main battle tanks with a Powerball spell without even trying, and not sweat the drain. Nor is she a blunt instrument: when she destroyed several Saeder-Krupp buildings to send a message to Lofwyr recently, she demolished them with architechtural precision so that they would implode safely, all while a veritable army of her summoned spirits removed the people from inside.

I'm not saying that dragons are unbeatable. Dragons have been brought down with military firepower several times before. But it's never been easy. Especially if the dragon is being smart (instead of confused and rampaging after coming out of hibernation) and uses their magical abilities to the fullest.

Cranstonvm

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« Reply #250 on: (16:36:37/05-31-12) »
Touched on above, spirits. Dragons have a fair number of spirits they can call on some of which aren't bound and just hanging out near the dragon.

They are also good at dealing with people Lofwyr talked his way past the soldiers sent to his lair.

They are smarter then metahumans by a lot, richer, live longer, magical, and deliberate in their plans. As they get older they get more powerful.

It took a nuke to kill Dunkie and he was able to contain the blast from hurting anyone else with magic. That means the most powerful weapon metahumans have can be nullified with magic. A jet or twelve won't do any damage to a dragon. An orbital laser hurt a great dragon but didn't kill him. If the great would have magic up I doubt it would have hurt him much.

No one has mentioned what I think I think is their most powerful ability: Servants and allies most of the Greats have a network of allies that could be from the 4th age that could have survived through the 5th age. At the very least their networks were rebuilt in the 6th age, built enough to rival most nations and megacorps. (I am pretty sure Dunkie had his network survive through the 5th age and into the 6th age and that would explain how he was able to be so powerful and rich with so much current items like a record collection.)

Oh, and they can read your mind with Dragonspeech. 
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

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CanRay

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« Reply #251 on: (19:38:52/05-31-12) »
They also eat your soul as they eat your body, and absorb your power and knowledge when they do so!
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Black

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« Reply #252 on: (20:33:39/05-31-12) »
Calling Bull!  Canray!  Dragons do not eat your soul!

Thats what Immortal Elves do!

Really!
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Change perception and reality will follow
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beowulf_of_wa

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« Reply #253 on: (22:50:44/05-31-12) »
we all seem to be bypassing one key thing that ensures they (the dragons, of course) have as much respect from people as they can get.

we consider them mythological creatures that could never turn out to be real. imagine how many pairs of pants were ruined on the day dragons flew into the sky again.
« Last Edit: (23:56:13/05-31-12) by beowulf_of_wa »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #254 on: (23:49:01/05-31-12) »
I dunno, how many Japanese businessmen and -women can you jam into a bullet train zooming past Mt. Fuji?  ;)

Enclave, I just ... the fact that you are asking the question sort of baffles me, I confess.  And without even touching on wealth (immense), mystic power (likewise), or physical capabilities (impressive), I'd just like to note one thing:  Dragons, particularly the Great Dragon sorts that you're speaking of, have IQs of roughly 400.  Incredibly smart human?  180 to 210, read as 6 or 7 Logic.  Ever see the movie 'Limitless'?  I would guess that that guy approaches 300.  Now step it up not just one notch, but three.

Next, look at our reaction to them.  These are beings of great mythological stature.  I posted (several times) to a question regarding them in the HERO Games forums; the first reply possibly serves you best.  The thing of it is, though, is that a dragon is the entire meaning and symbol of How The World Changed.  Screw cyberware, screw VITAS, screw the Matrix and magic; Here There Be Dragons.  The Brits weren't about to send the army after Rhonabwy, since he'd just shown that hey, just having a post-nap epileptic seizure he can bloody wreck a town.  Now that he's awake, what would he do to an armored division?

Well, for more on that topic, we turn to our KSAF reporter in the skies over Denver on 25 December 2061... (See Year of the Comet, p. 59).  This is 'inherent abilities'; see also Tehran and Brazil.

For more on resources, we turn to The Dragon With The Most, your pal and mine, Goldfing... errr, Lofwyr.  See, he not only has the inherent abilities, he also has the world's largest corporation -- and the economic, political, and military might (which includes both satellite weaponry and a nuclear stockpile) that it possesses.

I'm not trying facetious, I get that they do have this power so they got it in some manner; maybe it's just because they don't really interest me that I question them?

If you are playing the same game we are, and your GM is paying attention, dragons should interest you if only in a player's self-defense.  Humanity are a bunch of 4-year-olds with Nerf bats; dragons are a 35-year-old athletic adult with a gun collection and a heavy pickup truck.  Usually the 35-year-old drives carefully around the 4-year-olds, keeps his guns in a safe place, but if the 4-year-olds tried to take him on, well, it's gonna take a LOT of 4-year-olds with Nerf bats to get him down.

I think we're just wondering how, exactly, do you mean to be 'questioning' them.  If playing AD&D, reading the Hobbit, anything fantastical with a dragon in it doesn't make you think about what happens when you give a dragon lots of years to collect treasure, give him an IQ the height of the Renraku Arcology (ACHE to you 4edders out there), then turn him loose in a world where 'dog eat dog' is only barely not a literalism in the economic sphere, then you need to face down a few more dragons in the non-4e AD&D universe...
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