NEWS

Street Legends Supplemental now out--ten more characters to play with!

  • 226 Replies
  • 45609 Views

Critias

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2521
  • Company Elf
« Reply #195 on: (00:39:31/11-10-12) »
The disparity is something we're well aware of (and have worked to fix, as we can, in more recent products; there are multiple dwarves, often casting decisive votes, on the Tir Council of Princes, for instance), but has been hard to rectify (since there haven't been any more Street Legends books).  Part of the problem as I understand it was that (a) many of us were writing SL pieces on existing characters who had headlined novels and stuff, and not many of those were dwarves.  Couple that with (b) others of us were writing awesome new characters of awesomeness, and given the low number of dwarves in general play among the fandom (just look at chargen threads, for instance), there weren't many dwarves there, either.

They've just always been an unfortunately-overlooked part of the game.  When you want someone tough or strong, most folks go Ork or Troll (so they don't have movement penalties, and/or get better stats).  When you want a generalist, you go human.  When you want a cool kid, you go Elf.  Dwarves don't fit a niche, in my experience, with the average gamer on the street. 

Mara

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1133
« Reply #196 on: (04:56:49/11-10-12) »
You know...I thought the reason there were so few dwarves in prominent positions was due to the Dwarven Conspiracy, run
by Immortal Dwarves, that has the sole goal of: keeping dwarves from dying in the numbers Humans, Elves, Orks, and Trolls do in violent crimes...

Shadowjack

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1016
« Reply #197 on: (06:22:41/11-10-12) »
You know, it seems like Dwarves always get the shaft in the games I play. My friends and I develop our own rpg and Dwarves always end up being the most under played race. In Shadowrun, it seems like Dwarves are just over-looked in many cases. Statistically there is nothing wrong with them in my opinion. Even if they are slightly less optimal than other races, for me, they're still a fun option and a nice addition to the game. About people not playing Dwarves as often as the other races... maybe they would if there were more cool and reputable Dwarves in the novels and gaming books. If Harlequin was a Dwarf and people saw his stats in SL, I bet a lot more people would start playing Dwarves. Glad to hear you guys are trying to patch up this issue. I would really love to see a Dwarf in the next installment of SL. Better yet, how about an ALL Dwarf SL book? 50 new Dwarves to rule the streets! Lol.
Show me your wallet and I'll show you a man with 20 fingers.

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8982
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #198 on: (08:31:16/11-10-12) »
Well, in Shadowrun, they're certainly looked down on, but in fantasy games such as D&D or anything the least bit Tolkein-related, dwarves certainly have their place, and are generally well represented, from what I've seen. Admittedly, I tend to play humans or elves, myself, but that's a personal preference thing.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

Jian

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 167
« Reply #199 on: (08:39:43/11-10-12) »
Also, recall that the Core book says a lot of Dwarfs are quiet and unassuming people... heck right then it pointed to a noted programmer dwarf Frank "Friz" Baylor (note that for the list, blokes) basically sent a Matrixcast to a big awards ceremony where he'd won saying 'Sorry, I didn't want to take work off' in slightly more words, and predicted he'd win again next year in the same breath.

So I bet there are a lot of dwarfs who are in important positions, they just don't draw attention to themselves. As for the shadowrunners, I guess I personally have not come up with any dwarf concepts... if another game opens up, I'll try a dwarf.

Shadowjack

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1016
« Reply #200 on: (12:12:11/11-10-12) »
Mirikon, let's just say there are other games which I hate that have Dwarves and they are crap. I don't want to name the games because they don't deserve any further recognition :P
Next Shadowrun campaign I think there is a high chance I'll be playing a Dwarf because in truth, I haven't actually done it in 4E.
Show me your wallet and I'll show you a man with 20 fingers.

Critias

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2521
  • Company Elf
« Reply #201 on: (14:27:37/11-10-12) »
Well, in Shadowrun, they're certainly looked down on, but in fantasy games such as D&D or anything the least bit Tolkein-related, dwarves certainly have their place, and are generally well represented, from what I've seen. Admittedly, I tend to play humans or elves, myself, but that's a personal preference thing.
In your average D&D game -- at least traditionally speaking, prior to a few more recent editions -- dwarves are the "go to" race for being a tough and sturdy guy.  In Shadowrun, we've got orks and trolls for that, because they're not NPC-only evil monster races blah blah blah. 

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11032
  • Spouter of Random Words
    • CanRay's Artistic Work
« Reply #202 on: (00:38:09/11-11-12) »
In Shadowrun, we've got orks and trolls for that, because they're not NPC-only evil monster races blah blah blah.
Unless you listen to Humanis propaganda, that is.  ;D
Si vis pacem, para bellum

JustADude

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
  • Madness? This! Is! A FORUM!
« Reply #203 on: (00:46:09/11-11-12) »
In Shadowrun, we've got orks and trolls for that, because they're not NPC-only evil monster races blah blah blah.
Unless you listen to Humanis propaganda, that is.  ;D

Yeah, well, we all know what Humanis is good for, right?

The answer, of course, is "Target Practice." 8)
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
― Albert Einstein

"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
― Me

Mara

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1133
« Reply #204 on: (02:10:31/11-11-12) »
In Shadowrun, we've got orks and trolls for that, because they're not NPC-only evil monster races blah blah blah.
Unless you listen to Humanis propaganda, that is.  ;D

Yeah, well, we all know what Humanis is good for, right?

The answer, of course, is "Target Practice." 8)

Huh? What? Sorry..See I like Humanis...they make such good distractions when you tell them that some Pro-meta activist is going to be at the corp site you are going to be doing your job at....

Black

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1620
  • Rocking the Shadows since 1990
« Reply #205 on: (03:52:40/11-11-12) »
What if Humanis is right?  What if they really are protecting 'man'-kind from the inevitable... (Time to put the devil's advocate hat on... The hard bullet proof one)

- in less then hundreds years from now, you boss's boss will be an elf.  Its only natural.  With their longer lifespans, they will be able to acquire the knowledge and experience to excel in any career path, far beyond their shorter lived human counterparts.  Elves will run the place, its only natural.  Furthermore, their generation-spanning lifes will eventually provide them with long-term, big picture thinking far beyond anything a human could manage normally.  And boys, as elves become the dominant species, with the wealth and power, cultural trends will lean towards promoting their image as the ideal.  Therefore, they will steal your jobs and women... just saying.
- The Orc population is growing.  It will always be growing.  Soon your schools will be filled with rought and tumble orcs.  Orc boys who mature faster physically, but develope mentally at the same pace (perhaps slower.... oohhh he went there...)  Teenage boys can be a bit wild at the best of times.  Orc 'teenagers' who are as tough and physically mature as any human adult male?  Looks like trouble folks... and would you feel safe sending your delicate human daughter to the same schools as these physically adult, but mentally teenage orc boys?  Seperate human and orc schools are a neccessity, something that needs to be implemented before an unfortunate 'incident'...
- Trolls and dwarves...  well.... same as orcs and elves, just less extreme....

Humanis properganda would be fairly easy, and given that until recently the Japcorp megas were 99.9% human and promoted that culture with thier wage slaves...  It would be so easy to prey on the fears of the massess.  Sometimes I feel that 2070 looks a like like 1970...  And then when you get the orc underground trying to become officially a district in Seattle... then you just flip it around and talk about how orcs are trying to seperate themselves from the world around them, that the orcs are the racists etc etc, and then point out the Tirs for that elvan slant on the arguments.
Perception molds reality
Change perception and reality will follow
SR1+SR2+SR3++SR4+hb+++B?UB+IE+W+sa+m-gmM--P

JustADude

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
  • Madness? This! Is! A FORUM!
« Reply #206 on: (04:14:50/11-11-12) »
Black, dude, at the end of the day a racist fuckass is a racist fuckass, regardless of who he or she is for/against. Period. End of story.

“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
― Albert Einstein

"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
― Me

Critias

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2521
  • Company Elf
« Reply #207 on: (04:37:55/11-11-12) »
Black, dude, at the end of the day a racist fuckass is a racist fuckass, regardless of who he or she is for/against. Period. End of story.
Except, of course, when there's more to it than just racism.  The different metaspecies are different -- quantifiably and truly -- in ways that the real-life races and ethnicities of the world never have been.  There's a (completely reasonable and appropriate) knee-jerk reaction against racism, from our modern-day sensibilities...but there is at least a kernel of truth to some of it when it's found in the Sixth World, where metaspecies are concerned.

JustADude

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
  • Madness? This! Is! A FORUM!
« Reply #208 on: (04:55:34/11-11-12) »
Black, dude, at the end of the day a racist fuckass is a racist fuckass, regardless of who he or she is for/against. Period. End of story.
Except, of course, when there's more to it than just racism.  The different metaspecies are different -- quantifiably and truly -- in ways that the real-life races and ethnicities of the world never have been.  There's a (completely reasonable and appropriate) knee-jerk reaction against racism, from our modern-day sensibilities...but there is at least a kernel of truth to some of it when it's found in the Sixth World, where metaspecies are concerned.

Even in that case, all they're doing is exacerbating the differences that exist, ensuring ongoing animosity and violence, because they want to keep insisting that humanity should be a Special Snowflake, when we're not... not in the Sixth World, at least.

Yeah, elves are gonna out-live everyone. Bitching isn't going to change that, and nothing anyone can say will convince me the alternatives (aka, mass murder or genetic tampering) are ever going to be acceptable. All it does is give them someone to blame, other than their own short-comings, for the bad things that happen to them in life.

As for the other point... if they're worried about their "precious baby" getting bruised up by the 3-out-of-5 metatypes with superhuman strength, then they should home-school them. Otherwise, let the kid learn how to not piss off people who can make them eat their own nose... a feat which would be a lot easier if the parents weren't teaching their kids to treat the really big, really strong metatypes are "dirty" "stupid" and/or "inferior."

Yeah, I'm sure that being conditioned to talk down to the 6'5" slabs of muscle laced with teenage hormones has absolutely nothing to do with the the fact that they got the shit beat out of them. It was just the Ork being a big, stupid, raging beast. Definitely.

Now, of course, this is just my personal take on it... but I tend to have the delusional belief that, in the absence of individuals actively trying to stir up drama for their own personal reasons, a group will tend to coexist peacefully. The problem is that, in the real world, you just can't get rid of the drama-queens faster than they breed.
« Last Edit: (05:08:09/11-11-12) by JustADude »
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
― Albert Einstein

"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
― Me

Black

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1620
  • Rocking the Shadows since 1990
« Reply #209 on: (05:49:38/11-11-12) »
Black, dude, at the end of the day a racist fuckass is a racist fuckass, regardless of who he or she is for/against. Period. End of story.

Hey, no problem, it's why I put the bullet proof hard hat on.  Maybe cause the game I gm has humanis show up pretty regularly, I spend some time playing with their logic so I can do they appropriate villain speech before the Guys blow them away, again.

As Critias noted, I focused on biological differences and the potential negative impacts on society.  I found it hard to find real issues with trolls and dwarves, bedsides their size (which seems petty)



Perception molds reality
Change perception and reality will follow
SR1+SR2+SR3++SR4+hb+++B?UB+IE+W+sa+m-gmM--P