[Emil_Barr]

I'm a new member here, and I thought I'd say "hi" by starting up a new topic on something that's bugged me for a bit, and maybe get a fresh perspective on it. Forgive me if I'm putting emphasis on something that everyone else thinks is obvious

Regarding the titular question, I sometimes feel that it can be very true. This isn't the case for items that are obvious to any observer, such as a firearm. Licenses for those pretty much are mandatory if you don't want constant problems with the law. However, for non obvious gear, different combinations of gear do seem to make me think taking licenses for them are pointless. Take for instance, the following case:

Obvious Cyber Arm
Strength Mod X
Spur

Now, I'm making two assumptions here. My first assumption is that the Strength Mod on the arm is a modification to the internal workings of the cyber arm, and is not obviously noticeable without special equipment (i.e. a cyberware scanner) The second assumption I'm making is similar, but in regards to the Spur. Because Spurs are retractable, I assume that when retracted they are unnoticeable. I figure this is the case because RAW lists no threshold to detect retracted Spurs, though I do realize that this could also mean that they are in fact obvious and not really hidden at all. The first interpretation just seems to make more sense to me, but I will admit it's highly possible I'm wrong.

Now, assuming I'm correct, MAD Scanners arn't that big a deal, because they'll just detect the cyberarm and not the equipment within. Easy to play off and no licenses is need for either in this situation. As I'm sure we're all aware however, Cyberware Scanners are another case entirely, because they see through objects and can pick individual equipment in the arm. So, the character gets scanned, and the scanner gets it's hit and detects the arm, the Mod, and the Spur. Here's where my question starts to come into play. The Strength Mod is restricted gear, so one's first instinct is to buy up a fake license to make it nice and legal. However, the same scan will pick up the Spur, which is forbidden equipment. So you're going to have issues no matter what. So it would seem to me that one ought to just save yourself the [100 x rating Nuyen] on the license, cause it doesn't seem to matter.

Now, you might say, "Big deal, at char gen that like what, 400 Nuyen saved?" Well, that's just for the arm. There's still the rest of the runner to consider!

Runny McRunsalot

Eyeware
Cybereyes 1

Cybereyes
Smartlink

Bodyware
Plastic Bone Lacing
Wired Reflexes 1
Dermal Plating 1
Reaction Enhancers 1
Muscle Replacement 1

Obvious Cyber Arm
Strength Mod X

Now, you'll notice that I removed the Spur from the character, and you may be wondering, "why?" Well, it's because I'm open to the idea that a Spur is in fact obvious to an observer. So I've replaced it with a piece of equipment that I think we all can agree is not obvious, but is forbidden just the same (Plastic Bone Lacing) The rest of the gear is either restricted or perfectly legal.

Now, the character goes through a MAD Scanner. It'll go off, but again this isn't necessarily a big deal. Almost all of the gear cant be seen with the naked eye, and the cyberarm can be played as the source. Hell, the Bone Lacing cant even be detected by MAD because it's plastic. But again, a Cyberware Scanner will pick it all up. Since you have a piece of forbidden gear, having licenses for everything else would seem to be pointless. Now we're up to 2400 Nuyen. That's somewhat significant at Char Gen, at lest it is to a skinflint like me! I mean, c'mon that's like, 240 doses of Novacoke! Could throw a hell of a party with that! And there's a hidden bonus as well. You're SIN doesn't need to have a background explaining why you have all this murder gear installed in you!

Am I wrong in my thinking? What do you all think?

Now, I will say one more thing, when I talk about MAD Scanners, I'm assuming a walk though scanner. Because MAD Scanners can be wands too, the character would want to have at least one license, probably for the Dermal Plating, to explain why their calves are setting off the scanner.

[Xzylvador]

You might want to look up the millimeter-wave aka cyberware scanner on SR4A 262 and 334.
It'll see that metal weapon right through that metal arm. (Actually I think a MAD scanner would too. It isn't just a "metal has been detected in close proximity" scanner, it could give a nice 3D render of your metallic arm and the weapon that's "hidden" inside unless it had magnetic shielding, which would be suspicious too.)
But the cyberware scanner would also see that same weapon if it was plastic, or wood or anything else and it can see that plastic that's been put in/on your bones.

So either get a good fake licence & non-forbidden gear, get bioware (and hope there isn't an assensing wagemage doing security) or make sure your hacker tells that scanner that everything is a-ok.

Edit: Would just like to add that my 'runners don't usually have licences for all their restricted gear and will keep some of it hidden just as well as their forbidden gear. There are some things with an R-rating which will get you into trouble regardless of the fact if you have a licence for it or not.
Getting caught with an AK-97, 2 Uzi's, a bunch of flashbang, smoke and gas grenades, a lockpick set, grapple gun and a map of the nearby prison will get you in trouble, no matter what licence you have in your pockets.

[Emil_Barr]

You might want to look up the millimeter-wave aka cyberware scanner on SR4A 262 and 334.
It'll see that metal weapon right through that metal arm.

Oh, I'm aware of it. That's why I mentioned it.

That's why I say that if you have both forbidden and restricted gear, getting licenses for your restricted gear seems rather pointless to me. Of course, the obvious solution would be to not get any forbidden gear, but what fun is that?

(Actually I think a MAD scanner would too. It isn't just a "metal has been detected in close proximity" scanner, it could give a nice 3D render of your metallic arm and the weapon that's "hidden" inside unless it had magnetic shielding, which would be suspicious too.)

I haven't read anything that would give me that impression, just that it was a metal detector. I suppose it could work like some sort of X-Ray scanner, but that always seemed more like the territory of a Cyberware Scanner to me, since it specifically mentions that it sees through things. 

[Xzylvador]

It can go both ways with a MAD scanner I guess. SR4A states that it finds metallic substances with the purpose of finding concealed weapons, and then explains how to determine if it finds a weapon/object.

That can be read as a the normal magnetic scanner you now have in airports (and apparently schools in the US): "When metal passes: roll dice and it might beep". In which case it probably wouldn't find the metal blade in the metal arm.
But it can also be interpreted by reading it as: "It finds all metal. Roll dice to determine if it can make a good enough image of the object to recognize it and beep if it's a weapon." In 2070+, I'm going with the second. *shrug*

[beowulf_of_wa]

see the real trick is having it but not needing to take it thru the scanner.

[Xzylvador]

FedEx your cyberarms and -legs to the location and step on a plane without?

[KarmaInferno]

This is why modular cyberlimbs might be useful to a runner.




-k

[Crash_00]

Licenses really depend on the character for me. Some of my characters I play very professional and some of them could give a damn because if they get flagged they've already botched it.

That said, think about all the random crap you see today. I mean seriously think about it, there are more stupid trends around today than ever and its only getting worse. By 2070 its got to have hit an all time low. Take a few points of Con and slap an RFID on the spurt labeling it a "Office Master Commemorative Letter Opener" Yeah I got that after five years at the corp. Seems silly now, but the boss footed the bill. If you want to go all out, actually get a Letter Opener spur and swap them out when you aren't on the job. Or hell, take off the spur and slap in a pez dispenser.

My most illegal character hasn't ever had a license. He started fairly simple with barely anything to his name (I think a pistols that he didn't have any skill in was his only real restricted gear). Now he runs in Ruthenium coated Heavy Military Armor with a coated battle rifle of doom.

The real trick with licenses is that most of them (guns especially) will become useless after a run in which they are used unless you are careful enough to not leave any evidence behind (digging out rounds, etc.).

[Joush]

Guns don't tag their ammo with an RFID, for forensics to link your weapon to the rounds it fired, they need to confiscate the weapon and compare the marks it leaves on ammunition to the rounds left on the scene. (Keep in mind with SR, they can't link tool marks on shell cases in most.. uh.. cases. Because they are caseless.)

In my game the exact options installed in cybernetics are hard to pick out with  a Cybertechnology check required to pick them out with a cyberware scanner with a threshold of 2 plus the grade of the limb (3 for alpha, 4 for beta, ect.).  It's hard to tell at a glance if someone has a spur hidden along or within their synthetic ulna or smartlink installed within their cybereyes.

You can drop licenses if your basic loadout is blatantly illegal however. If you aren't going to get though a casual security inspection without Forbidden items being noticed, you don't need to bother getting a license for your pistol, ammo, smartlink and comlink software.

[kirk]

Guns don't tag their ammo with an RFID, for forensics to link your weapon to the rounds it fired, they need to confiscate the weapon and compare the marks it leaves on ammunition to the rounds left on the scene. (Keep in mind with SR, they can't link tool marks on shell cases in most.. uh.. cases. Because they are caseless.) [snip]

Based on the general text (RFID everywhere) and on the way the taggants are developing today, It's possible your gun will tag the ammo's RFID. That's probably a little too paranoid even for shadowrun, but it's worth considering.

Note the phrasing, by the way. I didn't say tag with RFID. The gun would send a message to RFIDs already in the bullet and powder: "Your ride today is courtesy of Jonesy's Predator, serial number 5520088515, registered owner..."

More likely is that the bullet will tag your gun with RFID. I figure that the manufacturing process will leave RFIDs in every bullet and mixed with the powder. A lot of the powder-based RFIDs will be destroyed from the heat and pressure. "A lot" isn't "all". In this case the link isn't as tight. It's just that forensics can read the RFIDs and know the manufacturer and lot number of those bullets. With that they'll be able to trace to all the sales and add the purchasers to their list of suspects.

[inca1980]

One thing to consider too though is the actual punishment once you get caught.  Granted, just one year-long sentence in practical game terms is just as bad as a 2 year long sentence, but potentially the amount of punishment could be worse for each restricted item you don't have a liscence for.  Alternately , the amount of bribe money you might have to pay for having a license might be significantly reduced if your GM pays that much attention to detail. 

Personally, as a GM if I saw a character actually went and bought some licenses i'd roll some dice and that could help out their situation, or lessen the bribe money needed to be paid to get out of said situation.

[Zilfer]

So I had a question, can you put a Cyberware Scanner or MAD Scanner on Glasses? Or goggles? Just curious.... if so I would think it might be a bit useful. XD Maybe i'm over shooting here... XD

I was able to do it in chummer but i don't know if it's legitament.

[Xzylvador]

Can only put vision enhancements in those. But don't consider that a bad thing, there's really no point in putting it in goggles!

Read the capacity sensors use and the sensor packages & capacity table on SR4A p334.
One of the most (over?-)powerful sensors for a runner is the Ultrawideband Radar on AR59 if you ask me. It's basically a cyberware scanner and radar in one. And pretty cheap too!
It takes only 2 capacity, meaning you can put it in a handheld sensor package (about the size of a pack of gum or a lighter). That handheld sensor-package can have a signal rating of 3, meaning you don't even have to hold it to see what it picks up. You can have it in your pocket, lying on a table or anywhere within 400m.

[Zilfer]

Can only put vision enhancements in those. But don't consider that a bad thing, there's really no point in putting it in goggles!

Read the capacity sensors use and the sensor packages & capacity table on SR4A p334.
One of the most (over?-)powerful sensors for a runner is the Ultrawideband Radar on AR59 if you ask me. It's basically a cyberware scanner and radar in one. And pretty cheap too!
It takes only 2 capacity, meaning you can put it in a handheld sensor package (about the size of a pack of gum or a lighter). That handheld sensor-package can have a signal rating of 3, meaning you don't even have to hold it to see what it picks up. You can have it in your pocket, lying on a table or anywhere within 400m.

I'll definately take a look.

[Joush]

Guns don't tag their ammo with an RFID, for forensics to link your weapon to the rounds it fired, they need to confiscate the weapon and compare the marks it leaves on ammunition to the rounds left on the scene. (Keep in mind with SR, they can't link tool marks on shell cases in most.. uh.. cases. Because they are caseless.) [snip]

Based on the general text (RFID everywhere) and on the way the taggants are developing today, It's possible your gun will tag the ammo's RFID. That's probably a little too paranoid even for shadowrun, but it's worth considering.

Note the phrasing, by the way. I didn't say tag with RFID. The gun would send a message to RFIDs already in the bullet and powder: "Your ride today is courtesy of Jonesy's Predator, serial number 5520088515, registered owner..."

More likely is that the bullet will tag your gun with RFID. I figure that the manufacturing process will leave RFIDs in every bullet and mixed with the powder. A lot of the powder-based RFIDs will be destroyed from the heat and pressure. "A lot" isn't "all". In this case the link isn't as tight. It's just that forensics can read the RFIDs and know the manufacturer and lot number of those bullets. With that they'll be able to trace to all the sales and add the purchasers to their list of suspects.

I see your logic, but it's nowhere in the rules and RFID are not free in Shadowrun. Even basic, easy to burn tags are .05 ¥, with the only tags that can resist burning being 100x more expensive. If every round of ammo has a security tag, it would represent 250% the cost of a normal round.

Given that the game already has everything need to pass though a tag burner before it's used, I'd hardly want to encourage more of that as it's not fun.