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Spell Understanding

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Thermo

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« Reply #60 on: <11-03-11/1343:48> »
I don't see why it wouldn't work for lasers.. gotta remember that laser weapons work differently than bullets. It isn't like a laser shoots out a single 'packet' of energy that slams into the target - it's more like a directed stream that 'cooks' through the target at a high rate due to the sheer amount of energy involved. A laser weapon is more similar to a firehose than to a bullet. So the fact that it arrives at the speed of light is irrelevant, the real question is what is its rate of energy delivery.

Zilfer

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« Reply #61 on: <11-03-11/1422:38> »
^meaning that it may "hit" you but not have fully "damaged" you yet and the shield may pop up before it really does any decent damage to you?

>.> kinda like burning ants... xD

Anyways...... did I understand you correctly?
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

Thermo

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tzizimine

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« Reply #63 on: <11-03-11/1512:19> »
Interesting about the laser heat timing.. good point
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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #64 on: <11-03-11/2311:10> »
Unless it is a pulse laser.  Which dumps a second or so (from a "normal" laser) of energy into a target in a millisecond.  The tech for that isn't terribly difficult or advanced.
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CanRay

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« Reply #65 on: <11-03-11/2313:28> »
Oh boy, here comes the physics again...

"How many newtons of energy does the throwing hatchet acquire as it's buried in the chest of a man who just fell off the CN Tower?"
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tzizimine

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« Reply #66 on: <11-04-11/0030:57> »
16.2... obviously...  ;)
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Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #67 on: <11-04-11/0715:06> »
Practically speaking, anything portable almost has to be a pulse laser.  You'd have to be a beyond-human sniper to be able to track your target and stabilize the weapon well enough to keep a continuous laser on the same square-centimeter of target to get enough energy buildup to do any harm.  A full cyborg might manage it, but a person probably couldn't.
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tzizimine

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« Reply #68 on: <11-04-11/1036:03> »
While I agree that keeping a laser beam focused on a uncooperative target for even a full second is difficult, the question is does it need to be a full second? Or, better phrased, does it take longer than it takes for a Detect spell spell to trigger an Armor spell?
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Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #69 on: <11-04-11/1159:16> »
Given that there's precedent for a bullet being blocked, I'll do a back-of-the-envelope calculation (on the back of a forum thread?).

A typical bullet travels anywhere from about 300 m/s (subsonic ammo) to about 1,000 m/s (random sniper weapon:  Barrett M82, muzzle velocity 853 m/s).  Even with improved materials in the 2070s, it wouldn't be practical for a bullet to be propelled faster than about Mach 6 (2,000 m/s) because of hypersonic effects.  So let's use that 2,000 m/s as an upper limit of bullet speed.  (Aside from the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle, which probably is uniquely designed to propel a thin projectile at hypersonic speed.)

Then, consider a Force 4 Detect In-Flight Bullet spell (or some such, to differentiate the fired bullet from those in some undercover cop's (or ganger's) unslotted magazine).  Assuming a Magic of 5, that spell has a detection range of Force x Magic, or 20 meters.  That's a response time of (20 m) / (2,000 m/s) = 0.01 s, or 10 milliseconds (at most, and that's from the time the bullet is detected to the time the triggered Armor spell is up and running).  So that's one current benchmark for "immediate" in the anchoring rules.  Another benchmark can be calculated by assuming that, instead of an Armor spell, the triggered spell is a Force 5 Physical Barrier which has a radius of Force meters, or 5 meters.  This cuts the detection slack down to 15 meters (if the bullet travels more than that during the triggering, it's inside the barrier), so the response time is cut to (15 m) / (2,000 m/s) = 0.0075 s, or 7.5 milliseconds.

Now, between response time = 0 and response time = 7.5 ms, we don't really have a RAW (other than "immediate").  Then the questions become: (1) Are the Ares laser weapons pulsed?  (2a) If so, how long is the pulse?  (2b) If not, how long does the spot have to remain on target to cause damage?  (3)  Is either of these times longer than the response time of the anchored spell?  (Or what is the response time of the anchored spell?)

I don't have a good answer for these, except to point out that astral movement uses the "speed of thought" (SR4A, 192).  The speed of thought might get you down to a sub-millisecond response time (barely).  It's much slower than the speed of light but may still be fast enough to intercept part of a laser pulse.  The speed of thought might place a lower limit on the response time of the anchoring, but what's the relevant laser time?  Laser pulse lengths can be anywhere across this argument, even down to the femtosecond (1e-15 second) scale.  (There are laboratory-sized femtosecond-pulse lasers in the present day.)  As a WAG, I'd say the typical pulse length for a 2070s laser weapon is something in the microsecond to nanosecond range, which would still be faster than the best likely response time for the anchored spell.
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ARC

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« Reply #70 on: <11-04-11/1206:50> »
Given that there's precedent for a bullet being blocked, I'll do a back-of-the-envelope calculation (on the back of a forum thread?).

A typical bullet travels anywhere from about 300 m/s (subsonic ammo) to about 1,000 m/s (random sniper weapon:  Barrett M82, muzzle velocity 853 m/s).  Even with improved materials in the 2070s, it wouldn't be practical for a bullet to be propelled faster than about Mach 6 (2,000 m/s) because of hypersonic effects.  So let's use that 2,000 m/s as an upper limit of bullet speed.  (Aside from the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle, which probably is uniquely designed to propel a thin projectile at hypersonic speed.)

Then, consider a Force 4 Detect In-Flight Bullet spell (or some such, to differentiate the fired bullet from those in some undercover cop's (or ganger's) unslotted magazine).  Assuming a Magic of 5, that spell has a detection range of Force x Magic, or 20 meters.  That's a response time of (20 m) / (2,000 m/s) = 0.01 s, or 10 milliseconds (at most, and that's from the time the bullet is detected to the time the triggered Armor spell is up and running).  So that's one current benchmark for "immediate" in the anchoring rules.  Another benchmark can be calculated by assuming that, instead of an Armor spell, the triggered spell is a Force 5 Physical Barrier which has a radius of Force meters, or 5 meters.  This cuts the detection slack down to 15 meters (if the bullet travels more than that during the triggering, it's inside the barrier), so the response time is cut to (15 m) / (2,000 m/s) = 0.0075 s, or 7.5 milliseconds.

Now, between response time = 0 and response time = 7.5 ms, we don't really have a RAW (other than "immediate").  Then the questions become: (1) Are the Ares laser weapons pulsed?  (2a) If so, how long is the pulse?  (2b) If not, how long does the spot have to remain on target to cause damage?  (3)  Is either of these times longer than the response time of the anchored spell?  (Or what is the response time of the anchored spell?)

I don't have a good answer for these, except to point out that astral movement uses the "speed of thought" (SR4A, 192).  The speed of thought might get you down to a sub-millisecond response time (barely).  It's much slower than the speed of light but may still be fast enough to intercept part of a laser pulse.  The speed of thought might place a lower limit on the response time of the anchoring, but what's the relevant laser time?  Laser pulse lengths can be anywhere across this argument, even down to the femtosecond (1e-15 second) scale.  (There are laboratory-sized femtosecond-pulse lasers in the present day.)  As a WAG, I'd say the typical pulse length for a 2070s laser weapon is something in the microsecond to nanosecond range, which would still be faster than the best likely response time for the anchored spell.

Since Astral travel is at the speed of thought, and magic goes off of emotion, I personally go off of once the intent is there.  As you command the trigger to pull, the impulses radiate from you at the speed of thought, by the time your finger hits the point where the trigger activates the quickend spell has already activated.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #71 on: <11-04-11/1236:02> »
that's pretty much how i'd see it.
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

shion

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« Reply #72 on: <11-04-11/1531:40> »
The assumption in this question is that information has to travel from the detect spell, back to the point of origin for the barrier spell, correct?  If you consider the possibility that "by magic" you can simply cause an even to happen elsewhere, then assuming the detect spell range is larger than the diameter of the defence barrier, the "processing time" of the detect could be slightly slower than the speed of light, but since light still has to travel a distance to get to where the barrier springs up resulting in the triggered barrier being there first.  Make any sense?

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #73 on: <11-05-11/1451:55> »
ARC, if we're going off the speed of thought, then were talking dozens to hundreds of milliseconds.  Human thought isn't actually all that fast.
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ARC

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« Reply #74 on: <11-05-11/1525:17> »
ARC, if we're going off the speed of thought, then were talking dozens to hundreds of milliseconds.  Human thought isn't actually all that fast.

Yes but the problem is the movement of the body is in hundredths of a second.  So the time it takes the thought to move dow the arm, and then the finger to pull the trigger is easily 10 times faster that the finger moving.
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