[tzizimine]

Ok, I'll admit the Force 1 Increase Body was a bad example... so here's a different one...


1. Human with a Strength of 4, no augmentation
2. Human with a Strength of 4, but augmented with Muscle Augmentation 2 for a total of 6.


Force requirements:
1. Non-augmented human: You have to use Increase Strength at Force 4+
2. Augmented human: You have to use Increase Strength at Force 6+


Roll both tests, both come out to 3 hits. 3 is less than 4 and less than 6 so no limitations on hits.
Drain tests for both spells, but based on Magic attribute, the Force 6 might be overchannelling.


1. Non-augmented Human now has Strength of 7 (from a Force 4 spell)
2. Augmented Human now has a Strength of 9 (from a Force 6 spell)


Before I continue, does this example mesh with everyone's understanding of this spell?

[FastJack]

That's how I play it.

[Mirikon]

That's my understanding as well.

[tzizimine]

Ok, then the next question, does the Increase [Attribute] spell, once sustained, count as augmented?


I ask, because in Example #2, the augmented human might be at his maximum strength possible (human natural max of 6 x1.5 = 9), so he couldn't get any stronger, even if we dropped this spell and recast a Force 12 and managed (somehow) to get 12 hits??


6 + 12 = 18, which is way over the human absolute max of 9 (even 11 if exceptional attribute and that other genetic quality)...

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Ok, then the next question, does the Increase [Attribute] spell, once sustained, count as augmented?

I ask, because in Example #2, the augmented human might be at his maximum strength possible (human natural max of 6 x1.5 = 9), so he couldn't get any stronger, even if we dropped this spell and recast a Force 12 and managed (somehow) to get 12 hits??

6 + 12 = 18, which is way over the human absolute max of 9 (even 11 if exceptional attribute and that other genetic quality)...

It does.  The maximum is, in any case, the augmented maximum -- 9 for humans in most everything -- no matter what route you take it.  As I said in my previous:

... have to exceed your current augmented value.  Whether you gain that value through cyber, bio, or someone else's spell is entirely immaterial; your spell must be at least equal to that value.

You could, theoretically, stack spells.  Might not be effective, might be, but there you have it.

[tzizimine]

Actually the spell does say that you can only affect one attribute with one Increase spell at a time, so no stacking that way...

[Zilfer]

Alright that's how i understand it too. However the way i see it if you are increasing someone magically your increasing their actual abilities.

So for the people with cyberware enhancements i think it would stack obviously not over that maximum of 9 because you can never go past that. but someone with 1 agi, and muscle toner 2 for a total of 3 agi and then you get 4 hits on the increase agi test then you now have 5 agi with muscle toner 2. for a total of 7. I see it as increasing the "human" side of the abilities, and the machine will just increase what is already there.

*shrugs*

I have a question for you however, and i think i know the obvious answer but wanted to see for sure. If you edged one of these tests would it allow you to breach through your augmented maximum?

[tzizimine]

I wouldn't think so... The Force / Hits rule and the Augmented Max rule seem pretty absolute.

[Zilfer]

I wouldn't think so... The Force / Hits rule and the Augmented Max rule seem pretty absolute.

Yep, though I thought the maximum hits were pretty absolute as well and i recently came to find out edged dice pool breaks that in spells so i just had to ask.

[Carmody]

Tzizimine, I used to play the spell exactly as you described it.
Regarding the augmented maximum, I consider it as an absolute maximum, no way to exceed it (excpt by raising the maximum, exceptionnal attribute and few other cases).
For me this is a rule based on game balance, not on any "realism analysis". If you give no limit to an attribute you will see minimaxer players  find a way to boost some attributes to insane values which will be game breaker (lot of cyber + adept powers = spells + possessing spirits ...)

[Zilfer]

Tzizimine, I used to play the spell exactly as you described it.
Regarding the augmented maximum, I consider it as an absolute maximum, no way to exceed it (excpt by raising the maximum, exceptionnal attribute and few other cases).
For me this is a rule based on game balance, not on any "realism analysis". If you give no limit to an attribute you will see minimaxer players  find a way to boost some attributes to insane values which will be game breaker (lot of cyber + adept powers = spells + possessing spirits ...)

I really don't have that problem.... actually out of all the group I would say I the DM am probably the most guilty player since we switch off every so often but we don't let it get out of hand. I just made a 15 agility elf adept just to see how far i could push the envelope stat wise. It was fun making the character if I ever use it however i'm sure there will be checks and balances even against someone who's that kick ass with most weapons. Even if i'm throwing 34 edged dice with a single pistol. xD

but yeah that's how I was ultimately thinking as well. Just needed confirmation is all.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I really don't have that problem.... actually out of all the group I would say I the DM am probably the most guilty player since we switch off every so often but we don't let it get out of hand. I just made a 15 agility elf adept just to see how far i could push the envelope stat wise. It was fun making the character if I ever use it however i'm sure there will be checks and balances even against someone who's that kick ass with most weapons. Even if i'm throwing 34 edged dice with a single pistol. xD

but yeah that's how I was ultimately thinking as well. Just needed confirmation is all.

7 racial max base, +1 genetic mod, +1 exceptional attribute: 9 racial max, + 1/2 (round down, or 4) = 13 maximum augmented Agility elf.  Where are you getting that last racial max point, again?

Gaah.  I need to get into a FtF game so I can get into the nitpicky stuff of the new (i.e. SR4/A) system...

[Mason]

SURGE. Metagenetic enhancement quality, 20 BP, available in Runner's Companion.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Ah-ha.  I see, said the blind man.  Interesting; you can thus acquire a +2 bonus to every attribute (1.6 essence, metavariant or Changeling type, 160 BP / 320 karma) and a total of +3 to one of them.

Nasty.  An elf with both Charisma and Agility at a natural maximum of 10, or augmented of 15.  Worse -- a Vampire or Nosferatu.  Vampire with one at 10, one at 11; Nosferatu able to bring that +3 to INT, LOG, or WIL -- all of which already get +2, sending them to 10/11.

Gaahhh!!  Evil, evil villian.  'What, you thought he was actually dead??"

[CanRay]

My old group back home had five levels of "Dead" for villains.  And allies, for that matter.