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Monofilament Whip

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kirk

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« Reply #105 on: <10-06-11/0722:33> »
Minor interruption, but shouldn't the modification to the urban explorer armor be 2/6? It's P, so it checks against ballistic armor, and it's 8+hits vs 6-4. Isn't it?

Carmody

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« Reply #106 on: <10-06-11/0901:23> »
Ballistic armor is basically used against bullets, Impact armor against everything else. The ballistic or impact armor is not linked to the Physical vs Stun damage type.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #107 on: <10-06-11/1127:21> »
I wasn't really disagreeing.  I was just explaining my numbers.  Since using averages leaves decimals, and decimals aren't useable for the rules.  Hence the way I worked the problem.  Averages are great for when you work out for yourself.  But remember there are outliers in every population.  Sometimes there is going to be a lot of 6s sometimes there will be a lot of 1s.  That's why I just went with the standard ratio.  Yes it's skewed.  I understand that.  I agree.  I was just giving even footing.

The lazy answer is to round all decimals up, if you do it to both sides, you preserve enough balance and still get numbers that are more representative of actual die rolls (and you can wave off the people who are insisting on average numbers a lot more easily).

Also, since the comparison to Troll with Claymore has come up a few times, how come no one has pointed to the BP cost of Troll with Claymore vs Human with Monowhip. After all, doesn't cost of build factor into whether or not something is more powerful? Of course, none of that argument resolves the "no more effective than a gun with good ammo" argument of over-all in-game power. The troll, though more versatile, costs 97 BP more than a human with a monowhip (assuming maxed strength, agility, weapon with specialization for the troll and max agility, weapon skill for human). That's 97 BP the human can go invest in things that make him more powerful outside of melee combat (or further improving his melee combat with martial arts maneuvers and various things that let him get a bigger die pool). For that 97 extra BP, Troll gets an extra die on the attack, an extra point of reach, and an extra point of DV.

This is precisely what I was thinking.
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Preacher

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« Reply #108 on: <10-06-11/1202:45> »
I was never arguing against that.

There are plenty of ways to go about achieving a certain outcome that's easier one way than it is another.  You see it all the time, especially in powergaming discussions.  Take adepts for instance.  Most people here will and do tell others to grab a bit of bioware instead of "wasting" their points on Improved Physical Attribute.  Ditto for a magician taking Increase Reflexes over Wired Reflexes.  That doesn't make those alternative options worthless or overpowered; they're simply options that work better for some concepts than they do others.  The monofilament whip is simply an extreme example of that.  And, again, this is largely due to the fact that the other melee weapons have shitty stats rather than the monowhip being uberpowerful compared to other options in the game such as firearms or combat spells.

Personally, I always thought melee weapons should have a more static value and a user's Strength should influence armor penetration instead.  An average person can pick up a knife and wave it around and be considered a genuine threat, on par to someone waving a pistol around.  In Shadowrun, that's simply not the case.  Even if they do manage to hit you with it, it's going to be a mild scratch at worse, while the gun remains potentially dangerous.  And that's where the real problem lies.

Zilfer

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« Reply #109 on: <10-06-11/1238:28> »
I was never arguing against that.

There are plenty of ways to go about achieving a certain outcome that's easier one way than it is another.  You see it all the time, especially in powergaming discussions.  Take adepts for instance.  Most people here will and do tell others to grab a bit of bioware instead of "wasting" their points on Improved Physical Attribute.  Ditto for a magician taking Increase Reflexes over Wired Reflexes.  That doesn't make those alternative options worthless or overpowered; they're simply options that work better for some concepts than they do others.  The monofilament whip is simply an extreme example of that.  And, again, this is largely due to the fact that the other melee weapons have shitty stats rather than the monowhip being uberpowerful compared to other options in the game such as firearms or combat spells.

Personally, I always thought melee weapons should have a more static value and a user's Strength should influence armor penetration instead.  An average person can pick up a knife and wave it around and be considered a genuine threat, on par to someone waving a pistol around.  In Shadowrun, that's simply not the case.  Even if they do manage to hit you with it, it's going to be a mild scratch at worse, while the gun remains potentially dangerous.  And that's where the real problem lies.

1 or 2DV is still somebody hurting. It's hardly a scratch. It's like getting stabbed in your arm. Sure you probably won't die from it but it's going to hurt. Though your way of thinking about it is an interesting one as well the strength affecting penatration. What would happen when you take into account the Monofiliment weapons that are inately sharper than the rest however?

I think our defination of Overpowered is probably the difference in oppinion here. For me it's anything that allows someone to have an advantage over another person with little effort on their part. (there's a few sentances added onto it because that definition you could say a gun does that but i'm sure you get my point.) Fact is there's always something to compare something to make it look not over powered. Sure a Stunbolt might be overpowered as well, but comparing it to SnS or a Monofiliment whip doesn't make it any different in terms of Overpowered ness. Quite frankly in all games there usually is a few things that are more powerful than others. I don't think they should be banned from the table or anything like that myself. Just know that if you exploit it, that It can be exploited back.


*shrugs* that's just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it. (heh reminds me of take a penny leave a penny)
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

ARC

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« Reply #110 on: <10-06-11/1339:40> »
The problem I'm seeing is, he asked for a reason why everyone is afraid of the whip.  I have given argument as to why, he didn't like my arguement.  He mentioned that the whip isn't any stronger than any other Reach 2 Weapon. I explained why.  Again he didn't like my arguement.  I used deliberatly underpowered attacker and defender.  Now the defender was given incredible luck and incredibly bad luck for both examples.  Instead of reading the arguement, he attacked my choice of underpowered characters to demonstrate he lethality of the weapon.  I never compared the monofilament whip to a firearm.  That wasn't the point.  It was against other melee weapons.  In the end I ended up trashing my rep arguing with someone that had made up his mind and was unwilling to see the viewpoint of others.
« Last Edit: <10-07-11/0314:32> by ARC »
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Mason

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« Reply #111 on: <10-06-11/1346:41> »
Eh, who cares about Rep here? Look at Fastjack! He is awesome and epic, but he has a LOT of negative Rep. Also, since you can click the Rep buttin once an hour here, every time someone returns to the forum and dislikes something you said he can down your rep again, so it can drop really fast.

Zilfer

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« Reply #112 on: <10-06-11/1405:24> »
Wear it like a badge of honor? you contributed something of contraversy! xD
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man