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Sniper in the sky

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #90 on: (19:09:00/10-10-11) »
the guards are probably going to have the advantage of facing an Extended Opposed test instead of a recurring standard Opposed test -- and only need 2 net successes.

While extended test have thresholds, not every threshold test is an extended test.  For an extended test, you need a time interval, and perception doesn't provide that.

And not every extended test is delineated in the rules; the GM provides that.  Again, good -- or even okay -- guard patrols don't look at the same thing every time; they check different areas, look at different objects, peer into different shadows.  Even if they do happen to be looking at the same thing, they look at it in a different way -- or at a different angle.  This, at least to my mind is an extended test, with a time interval equivalent to 'the average patrol round interval' -- i.e. one roll every time they go around, until they notice something different -- or completely fail to notice and you're gone already.  If the player is intelligent, they'll take two minutes once the patrol's gone by to displace and go hide somewhere else, i.e. reset the Extended test / turn it into a standard Opposed test.

I don't know -- maybe it's just me.  But even if you've got every piece of no-see-me electronics out there, eventually you'll get seen.  And once you're seen, the suspiciousness rating of the opposition is going to be in direct proportion to the amount of effort the vehicle is putting out to be unseen...
Pananagutan & End/Line

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Barskor

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« Reply #91 on: (00:15:06/10-11-11) »
The point is to delay delay and delay till your done with your operation and get out wihill they are still in the delayed period not i can wag my bott in the open forever.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #92 on: (06:35:24/10-11-11) »
Which means you're spending a fair amount of your time paying close attention to what your drone/vehicle is doing, not to what's going on around you.  Which is another of my points.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for using anti-spotting gear -- but typically in the getaway.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Kontact

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« Reply #93 on: (17:38:29/10-11-11) »
I don't know -- maybe it's just me.  But even if you've got every piece of no-see-me electronics out there, eventually you'll get seen.  And once you're seen, the suspiciousness rating of the opposition is going to be in direct proportion to the amount of effort the vehicle is putting out to be unseen...

If the GM decides you will eventually get seen, then you will eventually get seen.  If the GM decides that he wants to penalize people for having modified vehicles then he will penalize people for having modified vehicles.  If the GM decides that corporate extraterritoriality extends for miles outside of their property, then this also is true. 

But, if you're going by the books and the setting as they are presented, then:
1) the overwhelming majority of published SR literature portrays security forces as lazy and disinterested.
2) perception penalties can reduce a sizable DP down to critical glitch territory or nil without too much trouble.
3) perception is only used to find things that fall outside the norm and it has mechanical rules which are defined within the system of play
4) AAA corps own small swatches of territory and if their forces act outside of that territory, it is an international incident while AA and smaller corps are limited in their responses by the laws of the nation.


This is P&P roleplaying, so making things up is totally in line with what's going on here, but the stuff you make up does not really effect other people's games.

Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.  I don't mean to.  It's just that the guy is trying to be clever and you're trying to be realistic. 
In this game, clever gets your around a lot of problems, and realistic gets you into a lot of combats.

I don't know how much SR you've played, but I've played enough to discover that combat is boring.  It is simultaneously boring and deadly, and it should be avoided whenever possible.
« Last Edit: (17:52:13/10-11-11) by Kontact »

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #94 on: (22:18:13/10-11-11) »
But, if you're going by the books and the setting as they are presented, then:
1) the overwhelming majority of published SR literature portrays security forces as lazy and disinterested.

The overwhelming majority of published SR literature portrays security forces as being bored as hell, yes.  That can do one of two things -- make you sloppy, as you have pointed out that most of the literature says, or make you sharp, as some of the literature indicates.  This is, I would presume, adjudicated by the Professional Rating of the group the team is facing.  Higher professional ratings will pay more attention; lower, less so of course.

Part of the issue is that the point of view of most of what we, as players, see is that of the shadowrunner.  Living in Atlanta and having a spouse working for the CDC means that I get to deal regularly with sites that I'd describe as being only moderately secure -- semi-trained, professional rating 2.  They check every individual passing through their gates and doors, they keep a good eye on the hikers on the trails, they send someone after a car going too far into 'their' territory.  The rules support professionalism ratings, which should give a prompt for how regularly a security team does their job.  Unfortunately, the Corporate Security Unit doesn't even have perception at Professional Rating 2, so yeah, if you're going up against them, then easy peasy.

Which is a point I've made.

Quote from: Kontact
2) perception penalties can reduce a sizable DP down to critical glitch territory or nil without too much trouble.

And perception bonuses can reduce or eliminate penalties.  Not arguing on this.

Quote from: Kontact

3) perception is only used to find things that fall outside the norm and it has mechanical rules which are defined within the system of play

A 'thing outside the norm'.  Not to offend, but we ARE talking about vehicles loitering around the front door, right?  Things that cause ripples in the air, or thermographic ghosts, or flickering blips on the radar screen, right?  These things are outside the norm.  Shadowrunners infiltrating the place are things outside the norm.  You don't need a PER roll to find the wastepaper basket or the bathroom, but you roll a PER test to see if you notice -- or do something -- about the sensor ghost / odd rumbling / weird thermo cloud / flicker in the air.  Q.E.D.

Quote from: Kontact
4) AAA corps own small swatches of territory and if their forces act outside of that territory, it is an international incident while AA and smaller corps are limited in their responses by the laws of the nation.

Aaaand you are playing Shadowrun, right?  Corporations operate outside their territories all the time, sending squads in hot pursuit, bullets flying off the property, etc. etc. etc.  Taking a closer look at something that is 'lingering suspiciously' just outside the side door is a violation that they're going to commit with casual disregard.

Quote from: Kontact
This is P&P roleplaying, so making things up is totally in line with what's going on here, but the stuff you make up does not really effect other people's games.

Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.  I don't mean to.  It's just that the guy is trying to be clever and you're trying to be realistic. 
In this game, clever gets your around a lot of problems, and realistic gets you into a lot of combats.

Look, Kontact.  I'm not dissing 'clever'.  I am all for clever.  It's just that in my opinion, and apparently in the opinion of several others, Barskor is trying to be clever at the wrong time, with the wrong things, and when you do that -- well, as you so elegantly pointed out, it gets you into a lot of combats.

Yes, the rules are there, and they support what you're saying.  They also support what I'm saying -- if you listen to what I'm saying.
  • Driving around in your ghosted pimpmobile, or having a spooktacular gizmo in the air with a HUUUGE weapon to support you should things go bad is great.  It'll work fantastic against thugs, gangers, and couldn't see their hands in front of their faces low-level security guards.  If that's what you're running against, fine.
  • Doing this is not going to work against reasonably competent security.  You reach a certain level, and suddenly instead of being a ghost, you're spotted.
  • If you are spotted, the guard's reactions are going to be directly related to how hard you were trying to not be seen.  If you are driving your ghosted pimpmobile, or the spooktacular sniper in the sky is the one being suddenly eyeballed, security will have an immediate negative reaction -- because nobody with an IQ over 75 is going to say, 'hey, look, something near my stuff that's trying really hard to not be seen.  I think I'll let it go about its business!!'  Whether it's on your property, off it, in your airspace or out, you are going to take a Good Hard Look at it, and Keep Watch.  And, incidentally, you're going to bump up your alert status by one.
  • If the GM is being realistic -- and God help you if he is -- then the rent-a-cops at the warehouse complex you're breaking into are going to up their security status because the high-tech A-rated corp down the way has just gone to an alert status because they saw your gear.
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying.  Hell, I'm not disagreeing with what Barskor is building.  Some of it's cool, most of it I'd never use.  My main issue is how he uses what he builds.

Quote from: Kontact
I don't know how much SR you've played, but I've played enough to discover that combat is boring.  It is simultaneously boring and deadly, and it should be avoided whenever possible.
Late '89, early '90 -- late '89 I think.  Up until 2000, games at least 5 hours long (and usually 8-10) for 3-5 nights a week.  Afterwards, alas, not nearly that much -- but I can safely say I've passed my 20,000 hour mark.  (Yes, I've spent more than two and a quarter years of my life playing Shadowrun; that doesn't count the NON-gaming time, or the time online...)

And yes, I know about combat.  And the matrix.  And rigging.  And astral quests.  And, and, and.  I know your arguments.  Me, I avoid combat -- and that is exactly what I am saying.  Unfortunately, Barksor (last I heard) believes that one should fool the sensors; you are arguing in his favor, and while yes, his and your statements are supported by the rules, they extend only to a certain level of competence from the opposition.  As long as you're only stealing chickens, hijacking month-old prototypes, and kidnapping teenyboppers from the mall, that's fine.  If your target is somewhat higher than that, they see you sneaking, and you get shot at.

I -- and Kirk, or so I think -- believe firmly in fooling the mind behind the sensors.  Let them see your van or truck or drone, but if you get them to think that it's something innocent, they'll let it hang out for as long as you need it to.

I'm pretty certain we've reached the point of repeating arguments; I'm going to end my responses with this one.  If you disagree, fine, you disagree -- your GM's problem, not mine.  Well, and yours ... unless you're at my table at a convention ...
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #95 on: (00:22:09/10-12-11) »
Being clever is fine.

Going about thinking that only YOU are clever, and your opposition is not? Not so much.



-k

Barskor

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« Reply #96 on: (00:42:15/10-12-11) »
I don't recall stating exactly how i would use the sniper Goad besides saying when it hits the fan i can call in fire support to me thats the end of mission because something when horribly wrong and it is just get out alive time how is that stupid on my part? Should I have mentioned it should be crusing lazy 8s through downtown towers pretending to be just another AD balloon waiting till i call it? How is that lamer than a pizzza deliver van that gos no where?