[Solomon]

The specific is about how he first talks about an area that is obviously high security with lockdowns and threat response teams and then suddenly starts getting all up in arms that I talk about high security issues. The problem with this idea is anywhere it is useful there are better options. In low security areas they lack the tools to respond to magic anyway plus glomoss, which is unreliabale at the best of times according to the text,  functions based on how dense the material is so putting it on a card is going to make it more or less useless because there wont be enough to be really functional.

[Solomon]

The expense is hiring a mage to check each and every incident where your unreliable glomoss is triggered not the cost of the badges. If every time there is a shift in the ambient mana or a spirit or paracritter goes through the area or an astral form flips past or any other magical thing has impact on the glomoss you are going to need to call in a mage you might as well just have a mage on retainer already doing something much more useul

[Zilfer]

Hiring a mage itself for a few hours probably is way more than you'd pay for a life time of (glowbadges) lol I keep reading them glowbadges instead of globadge. XDMaybe it's said the same way donno.

Though if the runners were smart they could make a trigger go off in an area they aren't hitting so most of the attention is focused away from them no?

[Reaver]

I dunno. I think the idea is sound for a low security/low budget Corp or area. But there could be problems in areas that have other magical security in place. Last thing you want is a bunch of false positive alarms going off cause of "interference" with other wards or magically active staff.

However, in a zone/building without wards/spirits/mages it could be quite effective!

[Mason]

No, the point is this is a LOW tech device useful for the LOW to MID security areas where the mages/spirits/wards are not present or barely present. This is stuff the guys in the lobby would have for the office building with the secret upstairs research facility. This is an early warning system.

Furthermore, he said that the guard is supposed to check in after the device goes off, which isn't that onerous. Check ins are fairly frequent. Therefore, when the guard passes through known wards or through the patrolling spirit's hallway and it goes off, he clicks the alert off and continues to where he is going. Which a clever shadowrunner can take advantage of to create "false alarms" until the real alarm is interpreted as a false one once deeper into the facility.

This simply serves to add an additional layer to the astral security side of the run, which enhances the flavor of the game and overall experience for the Awakened members of the group.

[KarmaInferno]

Glomoss is good for low-to-medium security areas because it requires far less maintenance and expense than a wagemage casting or summoning all the time.

Yes, it's going to get false positives, but I'd rather have the guards go on heightened alert over nothing than not be warned that there's possible magic in the area.

It doesn't have to be in a badge. A widget box clipped to the belt or in a pocket is good enough, with moss inside, a light sensor, and a wireless connection to the security grid.


-k

[CanRay]

Of course, too many false positives can be a negative thing.

Or positive, in a 'Runner's POV.

[kirk]

OK, let's walk through the false positives issue a minute. There are two critical points that must be kept in mind.

1) the moss in the tip has different characteristics from moss in the wild (or on a wall). The most significant is range. The tip or badge or whatever has a range of 10 cm. 4 (well, 3.9) inches. Not from the wearer, from the device itself. (For convenience let's make it a badge.) The moss in the wild has a range of up to 60 meters. (10 x Force). The glowand, as described in AR 65, doesn't have as many false positives for the simple fact of range.

2) Neither the wand nor the wild moss have false positives. The misuse of this term is leading to confusion, so let's correct it. A false positive is "it signals but there is nothing there." What the moss signals is that there is SOMETHING there. It may not be a cast spell; instead it may be a change in background or an astral walker passing through it. All those are something that security needs to know.
a) Change in background - is it artificial in an attempt to hide an infiltration attempt? Is it "natural" and the prelude to a major geological or astral event (earthquake? ghostrising?) Security wants to know.
b) astral entity. We think we have the only astral entities here. If there are more we'd kinda like to know. If our astral patrol doesn't mention the entity we REALLY want to know.
c) spell. Obvious, yet apparently the obvious is being missed. The only spells that will trigger an alert are those that are cast or have an effect within 4 inches of the badge.  Joe Wyldmage in the lab is tossing fireballs left and right? No hits on the meter. First because of range, and second because there are (I hope) wards between the lab and outside.

Now all those said, it's possible there are 'local artifacts' - local peculiarities that cause the signal to go off. Maybe there's a ley line through the property. Maybe there's an ancient spirit and part of its walk of shame goes right through the donut cabinet three times a week. Security system pros deal with those a lot. The fix is pretty old, too. For the first week a tech - or for this a mage - is on duty 24/7 and checks out every single alert. He notes time and location, and the events get logged and mapped. If necessary this goes for a month, but that's rare.

Bottom line, after a month it's a system. Your spirits' patrols are known, both timing and route, and can be matched if/when signals occur. There's a wobble at 2348 Friday night? Yep, Old Horace right on schedule (and he better leave the sprinkles on the chocolate this time.)

If something new happens and it starts looking erratic, the security techs get called. They look to see if something new has been added. But what everyone figures is really happening is someone's screwing with the system. Why?

Because the moss doesn't go off for no reason.

I wouldn't use the system everywhere. Definitely not in magic research labs. But in the corporate HQs? In the weapons research labs and the nano labs and the...? If it's not using magic, or if the magic to be used is controlled and contained, heck yes. I'm using very precise Force 1 spells on "this", and suddenly the badge of the observer 5 meters away goes off. It ain't my spell, and it means there is a problem.

4 inch sensitive range. It's going off if someone walks through it, if background changes, or the wearer is the caster or target of a spell. Ain't none of that stuff to be ignored.

[Reaver]

Exactly, in a low magic area they would work great. But, add in roaming paracritters, spirits, wards, magical sentries, and magical evironmental conditions (awaken ivy, etc) and you could have a problem with false positives.

Now, is this really a concern? All depends on the protocol. If protocol says "send a Mage to investigate" then there is no real disruption to the day to day events. If the protocol is "the entire building goes on lock down until resolved" then you have the potential for false positive encounters costing a lot of Money to the Corp.( not a good thing )

The range of the "card" (for ease of argument) would both help and hinder in this regard. Afterall 4inches is CLOSE!
In fact it is so close that it could be easily by-passed by a careful runner who is "in the know" of such tags. And could also lead to too many "issues".

How long does the alarm sound when contact is made? For the length of the magical contact? Until reset after contact? Considering astral forms move at the speed of thought, it is possible for an alarm to be tripped and the culprit being 100 km away by the time the system registers the alert.

Still a good idea for corps on a limited budget that want some magical security.

[Barskor]

You guy are forgeting ech bage is if I ere using them linked to am employee so if it beeps you know  who or that Joe Smith has had an event Pluse every facility should be Mapped so not only do you get a ping on employee locations you also know ward A is still emplace Spirt B is patrolling on schedual And the magical Ive is still alive have not been burned by a mage forcing there way through.

All in all i think it is a good add to the security mix although it would let a hacker in on were magical suff is or might be as the down side.

[kirk]

over and over, "false positive" keeps coming up. Generate false positives till they're sick of it, then use the lulled attention.

Coffee time. I've already noted how, with a four inch detection range, false positives are far less common. But let's take a look at this "generate false positives" line so blithely kicked out.

Let's start with a reminder that the moss never generates false positives. If it goes off something happened. The "false" is that the something is benign.  So with that in mind, how do you generate a "false" positive?

You have to cast a spell on the wearer, or you have to change the background count. In both cases you leave an astral signature. You clean up the signature.

Congratulations, you've created the dog that didn't bark. The moss only glows in the presence of an astral cue, but there is no astral cue on which it could have gone off.

The counters to dealing with these badges aren't magic. They're tech or physical (social or muscle). When used with tech defenses and physical defenses it creates a more interlocked mesh. They make using illusions or mental spells much more challenging.

A point - a philosophy I hold, if you will. There is no such thing as a perfect security system.  All you're doing is ensuring your intruders are those of higher quality.  This, in turn, isn't always a bad thing. First, it means the number of people you need to examine to find who done it is much smaller. Second, in the event YOU need to hire a quality team, well, it's a nice qualification exam.

[FastJack]

over and over, "false positive" keeps coming up. Generate false positives till they're sick of it, then use the lulled attention.

Coffee time. I've already noted how, with a four inch detection range, false positives are far less common. But let's take a look at this "generate false positives" line so blithely kicked out.

Let's start with a reminder that the moss never generates false positives. If it goes off something happened. The "false" is that the something is benign.  So with that in mind, how do you generate a "false" positive?

You have to cast a spell on the wearer, or you have to change the background count. In both cases you leave an astral signature. You clean up the signature.

Congratulations, you've created the dog that didn't bark. The moss only glows in the presence of an astral cue, but there is no astral cue on which it could have gone off.

The counters to dealing with these badges aren't magic. They're tech or physical (social or muscle). When used with tech defenses and physical defenses it creates a more interlocked mesh. They make using illusions or mental spells much more challenging.

A point - a philosophy I hold, if you will. There is no such thing as a perfect security system.  All you're doing is ensuring your intruders are those of higher quality.  This, in turn, isn't always a bad thing. First, it means the number of people you need to examine to find who done it is much smaller. Second, in the event YOU need to hire a quality team, well, it's a nice qualification exam.

"Damn, my badge is inked again."
"How'd that happen?"
"Crazy mages in R&D probably left one of their 'projects' out or forgot to clean up after their shift. Again."

[kirk]

over and over, "false positive" keeps coming up. Generate false positives till they're sick of it, then use the lulled attention.

Coffee time. I've already noted how, with a four inch detection range, false positives are far less common. But let's take a look at this "generate false positives" line so blithely kicked out.

Let's start with a reminder that the moss never generates false positives. If it goes off something happened. The "false" is that the something is benign.  So with that in mind, how do you generate a "false" positive?

You have to cast a spell on the wearer, or you have to change the background count. In both cases you leave an astral signature. You clean up the signature.

Congratulations, you've created the dog that didn't bark. The moss only glows in the presence of an astral cue, but there is no astral cue on which it could have gone off.

The counters to dealing with these badges aren't magic. They're tech or physical (social or muscle). When used with tech defenses and physical defenses it creates a more interlocked mesh. They make using illusions or mental spells much more challenging.

A point - a philosophy I hold, if you will. There is no such thing as a perfect security system.  All you're doing is ensuring your intruders are those of higher quality.  This, in turn, isn't always a bad thing. First, it means the number of people you need to examine to find who done it is much smaller. Second, in the event YOU need to hire a quality team, well, it's a nice qualification exam.

"Damn, my badge is inked again."
"How'd that happen?"
"Crazy mages in R&D probably left one of their 'projects' out or forgot to clean up after their shift. Again."

heh. You keep thinking dosimeter. Think geiger counter instead -- except remember the 4 inch range.

[FastJack]

Oh, I'm thinking dosimeter because that's what I'm recommending. The wand is what it is, I'm thinking that there's got to be Corp that created a dosimeter-like badge for magic. Perhaps one of the early tests with FAB that doesn't devour magic, but does react to it - changes color, dies, etc.

[KarmaInferno]

I am fairly sure people are using "false positive" to mean "sensor going off on something that isn't actually a breach", not "sensor going off when there no actual mana effect".



-k