[kirk]

No,  not counterspelling or antimagic or any of those things.

According to arsenal, a glowand (60¥) is a common security device. I got to thinking about this in conjunction with mind control/mob control and other such mental spells. What if SOP was that if a person's glowand is going off they're assumed to be controlled?

A very minor advancement is a "deadman" switch. If it goes off, the wearer has a short number of combat turns to send a signal or a reaction force responds. Or perhaps the room locks down. Or a security stun (a "safe" version of a cranial bomb) triggers.

There are problems, of course. Adepts and mages will be hitting the button all the fraking time, for example. But for everyone else it's worth pointing out the wand only goes off if the magical activity is within 10 cm (~4 inches), which basically means the spell is targeting (or from) the bearer.

[FastJack]

I can easily picture corps creating card badges for their security much like a radiation detection badge. Just so they (and their co-workers) know if they were exposed.

[Solomon]

Seems like a waste, you can have your wage mage make a ward that wont let anyone affected by mind control spells enter unnoticed pretty easily as the spells are actively sustained. It is way more efficient to use wards than it is to assume everyone you gets within 10 centimeters of a mana event is under the influence of mind control

[kirk]

Seems like a waste, you can have your wage mage make a ward that wont let anyone affected by mind control spells enter unnoticed pretty easily as the spells are actively sustained. It is way more efficient to use wards than it is to assume everyone you gets within 10 centimeters of a mana event is under the influence of mind control

The ward is great for blocking things moving through that avenue.

The glowand device works for personnel outside the work facility, and internal personnel on the other side of the ward. If the spellcaster starts a mind control ritual on a secretary that starts about fifteen minutes after she's at work, then unless she passes through the ward as a normal part of her business day it's unlikely to happen.

[Solomon]

Yeah but personnel who walk through areas of importance and have access to critical systems and data probably pass through wards or some kind of mana barrier. I know when designing my perfect lair there is plenty of protection from exactly that sort of thing. I dont care for ritual magic, too little risk for the reward. Make the players earn what they achieve.

[kirk]

Yeah but personnel who walk through areas of importance and have access to critical systems and data probably pass through wards or some kind of mana barrier. I know when designing my perfect lair there is plenty of protection from exactly that sort of thing. I dont care for ritual magic, too little risk for the reward. Make the players earn what they achieve.

Either I completely misunderstood what you said, or that made no sense.

You seem to be saying you prefer an expensive, predictable, single-point-of-failure defense over a variable, multiple point of failure, and less expensive option. (Of course, best is layers: these with everyone, wards at critical junctures, etc. But I digress.)

If I understand your point, you also seem to think people will do more risk for the same reward. If I've got a choice of low and high risk for the same reward, I'm choosing low. Yes, it's boring. Unless I took one of the adrenaline junkie negative qualities, however, that's the right choice for roleplaying.

[Solomon]

My original point is that the glow stick idea was poorly thought out because you assumed that anyone who had contact with any kind of magic would be affected by some kind of spell that required a security alert and should be considered mind controlled. Relying on a device that detects the presence magic in immediate proximity to an individual to equate that individual as a victim of mind control or otherwise being some kind of a threat is resource intensive and ridiculous. You have to have some method of making sure anyone who touched a ward or was close to a spell or patrolling spirit wasnt really mind controlled and every time somebody was around one of these things that is incredibly common in a high security area you spend another 60 nuyen plus whatever the costs are of verification if the person is an actual victim of mind control. Rather, the smart thing is to rely on proven methods rather than an imprecise and utterly non specific detection method. Wards that prevent passage and spirits that detect magic influences with assensing are reliable and cost effective compared to your suggestion

On the other hand, you do have a point where I didnt make my second point distinct about using a lot a of protections in a facility like spirits and wards to prevent easy wins by players with ritual magic. Sorry, I will endeavor to make that clearer in the future.

[kirk]

My original point is that the glow stick idea was poorly thought out because you assumed that anyone who had contact with any kind of magic would be affected by some kind of spell that required a security alert and should be considered mind controlled. Relying on a device that detects the presence magic in immediate proximity to an individual to equate that individual as a victim of mind control or otherwise being some kind of a threat is resource intensive and ridiculous. You have to have some method of making sure anyone who touched a ward or was close to a spell or patrolling spirit wasnt really mind controlled and every time somebody was around one of these things that is incredibly common in a high security area you spend another 60 nuyen plus whatever the costs are of verification if the person is an actual victim of mind control. Rather, the smart thing is to rely on proven methods rather than an imprecise and utterly non specific detection method. Wards that prevent passage and spirits that detect magic influences with assensing are reliable and cost effective compared to your suggestion

On the other hand, you do have a point where I didnt make my second point distinct about using a lot a of protections in a facility like spirits and wards to prevent easy wins by players with ritual magic. Sorry, I will endeavor to make that clearer in the future.

Ah. I don't think you grasped.

The only way it goes off is if a trigger (spell, astral body, whatever) came within four inches. Let's use FastJack's location, a badge. So we've got a non-awakened employee, and the trigger goes off.

This is uncommon. It doesn't say "the guard is mind-controlled", it says magic came within touching distance. It might be mind control. It might be one of the astrals on patrol passed near. It might be someone using borrow sense. It doesn't matter, what matters is that we have magic - something rare - that came within four inches of that sensor.

What happens is sort of what happens in matrix space when an alert is triggered. Things ratchet up a notch. A bunch of people (also wearing sensors) start milling around the area to see if it's a traveling spell. The contact for the astrals checks to see if one of them triggered it - and by the way tells one or two to go check out the area to see if there's an uninvited guest.

If the alarm had gone off and CONTINUED to go off, the individual might have gotten dragged into a warded area. He definitely would be watched in case he was controlled or influenced. A mage would get sent to start checking for signature traces.

It's a simple mechanism. The bacteria detects magic/astral close by, and glows. The light-sensor in the wand detects the glow and closes the alarm circuit. The alarm give an audible "beep", and it sends a matrix signal to the security office.  All for ~60¥ per staff member, and all of it makes getting into the facility just a little bit harder.

It is not an automatic Maximum Response device. It's a sensor alarm, just as are the motion sensors in the lobby and the heat/fire sensors in the labs and...

[Solomon]

The problem is within high security areas magic is not uncommon. Wards and spirits are frequent tools in high security areas and even a temporary spike in the background count can trigger glomoss. Since you have frequent triggers you are going to need a mage on staff to check and verify regardless so you might as well go with a serious and reliable anti magic and magic detection system. On the other hand if you dont have a mage on hand, glomoss wont help you anyway because you wont be able to really respond to the magical threat. Seems a pointless waste to me

[kirk]

The problem is within high security areas magic is not uncommon. Wards and spirits are frequent tools in high security areas and even a temporary spike in the background count can trigger glomoss. Since you have frequent triggers you are going to need a mage on staff to check and verify regardless so you might as well go with a serious and reliable anti magic and magic detection system. On the other hand if you dont have a mage on hand, glomoss wont help you anyway because you wont be able to really respond to the magical threat. Seems a pointless waste to me

Wait. "High Security areas."

I'll say the words again. Layered security. Surrounding the high security area should be an area of medium security, further surrounded by low security.

Second, I'm going to suggest you're overstating the background count issue. I KNOW you've just introduced a contradiction: either there are mages to communicate with the spirits who can check things out, or there aren't spirits around. One or the other applies.

You're making a classic security mistake done by way too many amateurs. You're focusing everything on the nut, nothing on the approach, and because of the firepower on the nut you find the lesser strength stuff immaterial.

As I already said, they're one more check to go with the pressure pads and motion sensors and IR beams and thermo sensors and all that which are in various places already.

[Solomon]

The background count issue is specifically mentioned in Street Magic.

Spirits can patrol remote areas as a service without a mage present.

No place has "low security" that a Shadowrunner ever needs to visit.

I am saying that while you need to secure the approach you need a more reliable and useful approach than glomoss.

[kirk]

The background count issue is specifically mentioned in Street Magic.

Spirits can patrol remote areas as a service without a mage present.

No place has "low security" that a Shadowrunner ever needs to visit.

I am saying that while you need to secure the approach you need a more reliable and useful approach than glomoss.

I almost get the idea you just don't like it and are reaching for excuses.

Background count does not "just change". It has to be made to do so, whether by temporary action (such as cleansing) or as part of a longer and more drastic change. It does not happen in a vacuum and it doesn't just wander around.

Since if the background count changes it means someone or something is changing it security will want to know. It can discount the effect if it knows the cause. If the cause is unknown, security gets another clue something is going on.

Spirit on patrol. You're right, you don't need a mage. Of course, the only time you (security head) know the spirit's still patrolling is when it checks in (if it checks in) and/or if a mage drops by to talk to it. Elsewise it's got a "beat" it's supposed to walk, but there's no way to know if it got intercepted.  Oh, wait - unless you've got sensors that are going off as the spirit passes through them.

Finally, you apparently didn't read what I wrote about low security. Let me be plainer. Picture the security as two concentric hollow spheres around a central ball. The bullseye is high security. The wrapping surrounding it is medium. The outermost layer is low. To get to the center you have no choice but to pass through the low and medium.  Every single secured system with which I've worked has that process in place. An outer perimeter with unarmed guards, warning signs, and basic sensors. The next layer requires keys and has armed guards and heavier sensors. And then there's the core.

Oh, and if your gm never requires your runners to see any low security you're missing out. Bars, warehouses, and malls are just the tip of the iceberg of opportunities.

[Solomon]

You are suddenly trying to switch this topic to low security when you started the thread talking about if the badge is triggered the room going on lockdown and generating response teams. I have never seen anything like that in a low security area. Remain consistent in your scenario if you want a fair critique.

You are right about layers of security for obvious and overt security zones, not so much for secret labs and hidden facilities. Again, I think you need to be more concise in what exactly you are talking about.

Of course, on one point you are right, I do think it is a bad idea. Both in terms of effectiveness, cost and implementation

[Zilfer]

I think it's a good idea that could be used in a few different ways. I mean if one sensor goes off the security might look into it briefly trying to find a logical thing that might have happened and then if more then one employee sensor starts to go off then they might get a bit suspicious.

In the case of a spirit patrolling the area it wouldn't be suspicious to have a bunch of them going off but say someone got rid of that spirit in that area, there's a sudden halt in where the spirit was supposed to be patrolling? Might want to investigate.

Sounds like an interesting idea to say the least.

As for the back and forth between you guys, I'm not sure how much more specific Kirk can get.

[kirk]

You are suddenly trying to switch this topic to low security when you started the thread talking about if the badge is triggered the room going on lockdown and generating response teams. I have never seen anything like that in a low security area. Remain consistent in your scenario if you want a fair critique.

You are right about layers of security for obvious and overt security zones, not so much for secret labs and hidden facilities. Again, I think you need to be more concise in what exactly you are talking about.

Of course, on one point you are right, I do think it is a bad idea. Both in terms of effectiveness, cost and implementation

I did mention the lockdown and response teams. I also mentioned the layers, and use with outside perimeter patrols, and all the rest. I'm not changing the scenario, I'm refusing to be locked to only one small part.

That said, I can indeed see it in the higher security areas. I can draw a full diagram if you want, but there's no need. You have fluctuating backgrounds and variable wards and multiple spirits randomly but densely patrolling and, well, things that when you add them up cost a heckuva lot more than giving everyone a globadge.

eh. I still can't see how 30,000¥  to purchase badges for 500 employees is "too expensive." Not given the costs that have to go into commlink security and physical security and, well, and other magic security.