[Zilfer]

Typical Shadowruns don't happen on plains or even forest conditions.  Typically, they're in buildings, back alleys, dark streets...

What was it that a Police Research Paper said about gunfights in a city between criminals and officers?  Nope, can't find the reference book.    Probably lost in one of the many moves...

That's like when my room gets cleaned....

I can't find anything!!!

[CanRay]

Yeah, now try cleaning your room across four houses and two provinces.

[The Big Peat]

How many shots with 8S Electric damage with 1/2 impact armor do you need? 4 seems like plenty to me. Yeah you have to be close, but most fights I have had in shadowrun are pretty close range things.

This is a question for from table to table... but at mine at least, sometimes - probably most often - 4 shots at close range generally does the trick. It is however far from unheard of to want more than 4 shots before reloading, to need a longer range, or to generally want to combine the virtues of fully automatic weaponry with electricity.

It is nigh on certain that at some point you will really wish you weren't using a single shot weapon if you just plumped for the Defiance. Some point most combats in fact.

I have no problems with the Taser balance wise. Its useful enough, but at my table at least, its not a kingpin.

[Kontact]

"Giant" armored hands and feet, Kontact? Without modding them for bulk, cyberhands and feet are the same size as the ones they replace, and can be hidden under shoes or gloves.

Obvious cyberlimbs are obvious.  Any character pulling the mickey mouse move of having armored hands and feet is going to pull the same kind of attention as a vehicle driving down the street covered in obvious armor plating.  It's a big glowing sign that says "here comes trouble."  It's up to GMs to remind players of social consequences as there are no hard and fast rules as to when your blatant cybermonster is going to draw police attention.

My problem with Form Fitting armor isn't that it's game breakingly powerful, it's that the rules for it are awful. There is never a reason not to have it. It would have been faster for them to just say that everyone gets 3 extra points of Ballistic armor that dose not count to Encumbrance when wearing armor.

Yeah, it's a mistake not to take it.  There are some optional rules which obviate the need, specifically the rule that you can wear any one piece of armor without encumbrance, or the custom-built armor which can go up to bodx3.  I'm not sure if the guys who designed the sample characters were assuming this, or just remembering the old stats for jackets, but they love to drop an armor jacket on a guy with 2-3 body.  Perhaps they're opting for encumbrance over insta-death.  Fact is, with 6 armor, chances are the first guy you run into with a burst capable weapon is going to overflow you into an early grave.

Stick and Shock rounds are there to introduce something like the XREP wireless taser shotgun rounds, and are one rule away from working just fine as a high tech ammo type. I don't think anybody minds that their are nonlethal options, but the game has serious problems when it's faster and easier to take someone down non lethally then to kill them*. They also make gel rounds pointless. That a single shot weapon with the lowest range in the game and a tiny magazine can do a bit more damage is not enough to excuse how SnS works.

It's the future.  They have computers that run off your bioelectric field.  They have nanite fax machines.  Weapons that attack the nervous system instead of the circulatory system make sense and are fully possible given the level of tech.

Gel rounds used to be +2DV(stun).  I remember seeing dudes with gel rounds in elephant rifles knocking suckers the hell out.  The change to -1DV +2ap is dumb, and yes, they are now useless.  They're also ~100 years out of date.

That cyberlimbs are not an option taken by most of the characters in the setting dose nothing to excuse the rules for them for being awful, and I don't know what you mean by people being unable to get away with them. Cyberlimbs aren't even Restricted, much less Forbidden. Again, this is annoying because it's one simple rules fix from being fine.

I mean that anyone who wants to impersonate someone or talk their way into a corporate office is not likely to have an obvious cyberarm.  Cyberarms are considered low-class, and having a cyberlimb is wearing a sign which says as much.  This isn't a hard and fast rule, but it's generally true.  I suppose they could do a customized synth arm, but that isn't that hard to spot.  Yes, it's nice to up your combat stats with 1-handed weapons, that's why people sometimes get them, but it takes a lot more than an arm to cover infiltration needs, and every character needs to be able to roll infiltration.  If you have an arm and 1 Agility, you might as well be wearing bells.

[Crash_00]

Well first off, I'll cover Form Fit and PPP systems. Think about it logically. Why wouldn't you wear them if YOU were a runner. In my experience if the thing is a no brainer, it's only an issue if it wouldn't be a no brainer in rl. Cops wear their vests, corpers carry their doc wagon biomonitors, and runners wear their form-fit. This has been standard since form-fit was first introduced to the game world in my experience.

As for stick-n-shock, I have a hard time believing that most corps wouldn't standard issue non-conductive their armor. Mostly because of the fact that tasers, stun batons, etc are easier to legally get and what your average angry wageslave would have access to in a hurry. Afterall, standard security is not meant to stand up to Runner teams, they're meant to stand up to gangers, disgruntled employees, etc.

Seeing as we have the technology now to make something similar to these rounds for shotguns, I don't feel its unrealistic for them to be in every caliber in 2072. That said, a much better rule would be heavy pistol or larger rather than only shotguns in my opinion just to make it realistic.

My personal houserule that my group uses is this:
Stick-n-Shock attacks gain no extra DV from narrow bursts.

Cyberlimbs are useful for once in the history of the game. I don't mind it at all. If a player lays an AGI 1 character in front of me, I'd laugh because there will be cases where he will use his all over AGI rather than just his attack arms.

Now, I do have a problem with cyber-diabetes/leperocy/munchkinism where the character has two cyberfeet and two cyberhands full of armor. That said, unless its a prewritten adventure that I'm not supposed to change to much (like missions), I don't have a problem taking on high armor runners.

On an off topic note, modern tasers are not effective against actual armor, but it does take some very very thick clothing to one hundred percent always stop them. During the winters I wear a leather duster with a thick hoodie underneath, layered over my tee shirt and thermal shirt. During my unlucky college years I was tasered a couple times and only once did my clothing actually stop a dart (although the second dart quickly nullified that thought at the time).

If you're wanting to change tasers to be more realistic, then I suggest using the same rules for injection darts.

[Kontact]

Typical Shadowruns don't happen on plains or even forest conditions.  Typically, they're in buildings, back alleys, dark streets...

What was it that a Police Research Paper said about gunfights in a city between criminals and officers?  Nope, can't find the reference book.    Probably lost in one of the many moves...

It was something to the effect of 80% of fatal shootings happen within 10 meters from shooter to target.


I just realized - shouldn't this thread be moved to the rules forum?

[Crash_00]

Anyone that has issues with Form-fit being a standard should also have huge issues with the smartlink system. Afterall who doesn't benefit from it with a pair of SLed contacts and a SLed gun?

Some would say a character with no gun skill, but think about it. Even they get the +2 dice benefit. I have yet to see a SR4 character without a smartlink even if its just a backup option.

[Joush]

Obvious cyberlimbs are obvious.

Funny, Page 344 of SR4A says that they are  imminently recognizable... Unless covered by clothing.

Like, for example, gloves or shoes. In any case, unless impersonating another person a single full cyberlimb makes someone look like a person that was in an accident rather then a street samaruai and the idea that anyone that works at a Corp office can afford cloned replacement limbs is pretty laughable.  Again, my problem isn't that cyberlimbs can be useful, it's that the rules for armoring and customizing them are bad.

Form Fit armor, again, is a problem because it's not really an option. It should simply be considered built into every suit of serious armor. A flat rule that all armor has +3 ballistic rating would be less annoying. Rebalanceing armor and weapon damage to make the game less dangerous to Body 3 and less characters would also work. In any case, it's an over powered option, as written, just like having one pistol have the exact same stats as a Predator 4 but with 8 base damage.


Smartlink's less of a problem simply because it's core to the setting, not acutely vital. Improving your combat power slightly is nice, but not as good as get 150% of the armor you would otherwise have at body 3. There are also lots of fiddly things about smartlinks, from the need to have some kind of visual device to the fact that they can be hacked.

[CanRay]

Anyone that has issues with Form-fit being a standard should also have huge issues with the smartlink system. Afterall who doesn't benefit from it with a pair of SLed contacts and a SLed gun?

Some would say a character with no gun skill, but think about it. Even they get the +2 dice benefit. I have yet to see a SR4 character without a smartlink even if its just a backup option.

*Raises Hand*

[Xzylvador]

Probably lost in one of the many moves...

Are you going to show of some of these awesome moves of yours or will you just leave that floating there?!

As for Form Fitting, I mostly agree with Crash. It's just "the thing to have" like armored vests are now. There are little to no good reasons to not having one, but that just makes it an optimal choice, not an overpowered item.

[Mäx]

It is nigh on certain that at some point you will really wish you weren't using a single shot weapon if you just plumped for the Defiance. Some point most combats in fact.

Man, nature gave you 2 hands, use them both.
Gets nicely around the SS mode problem and doubles your ammo capacity.
 

Form Fit armor, again, is a problem because it's not really an option. It should simply be considered built into every suit of serious armor. A flat rule that all armor has +3 ballistic rating would be less annoying.

I said this once and i said it again, there's somethink seriously wrong with the way you run the world if the runners can wear a full-body condom where ever they go.

[JoeNapalm]

Typical Shadowruns don't happen on plains or even forest conditions.  Typically, they're in buildings, back alleys, dark streets...

What was it that a Police Research Paper said about gunfights in a city between criminals and officers?  Nope, can't find the reference book.    Probably lost in one of the many moves...

Most gunfights happen at 21 feet or less.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[JoeNapalm]

Anyone that has issues with Form-fit being a standard should also have huge issues with the smartlink system. Afterall who doesn't benefit from it with a pair of SLed contacts and a SLed gun?

Some would say a character with no gun skill, but think about it. Even they get the +2 dice benefit. I have yet to see a SR4 character without a smartlink even if its just a backup option.

*Raises Hand*

Second one, here. My Mage has Gremlins.

High tech, for him, is a revolver with a laser sight.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[The Big Peat]

It is nigh on certain that at some point you will really wish you weren't using a single shot weapon if you just plumped for the Defiance. Some point most combats in fact.

Man, nature gave you 2 hands, use them both.
Gets nicely around the SS mode problem and doubles your ammo capacity.
 

Works when you have both hands free, yeah.

[Mäx]

Works when you have both hands free, yeah.

Well if you plan to often not having both hands free in fight, it only cost 300 nuyen to make that taser SA.