NEWS

And the Johnson predictably betrays you... why?

  • 84 Replies
  • 19953 Views

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11141
  • Spouter of Random Words
    • CanRay's Artistic Work
« Reply #15 on: <09-05-11/1111:36> »
Wasn't there some great stuff written on Mr. Johnson betrayals and all that in Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book?  It talked about professionalism etc etc.
I think I remember that.  Also, the guy was infamous for burning 'Runner groups, IIRC.

Hatchetman had better things to put on the subject.

...

*Sniff*  I miss Hatchetman.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Critias

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2521
  • Company Elf
« Reply #16 on: <09-05-11/1150:27> »
I've only had the Johnson betray the players once, and that was an elaborate set-up job where they just got knocked out and dosed with Laes (instead of killed), all just to wipe clean their memories of what they'd done;  partially as a way of sweeping away tracks, but partially as a weird sort of favor to them, because the job had entailed killing children). 

But for the most part, I think the inevitable betrayal is a little too inevitable.  It hasn't played any part in either of the adventures I've written, for instance, and in the overwhelming majority of games I've ever run.  If Johnson betrays you every time, it's just as ridiculous as if the Shadowrunners betrayed Johnson every time.  Soon, the whole goofy FASAnomics of Shadowrunning falls apart (even quicker than it already should).  There has to be something like professionalism and -- for lack of a better word -- trust between employers and deniable assets, or the whole silly world wouldn't work like it does and the basic premise of the game'd be gone.

Weldûn

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 102
« Reply #17 on: <09-05-11/1229:28> »
There has to be something like professionalism and -- for lack of a better word -- trust between employers and deniable assets, or the whole silly world wouldn't work like it does and the basic premise of the game'd be gone.

Which is sort of why I started this thread. If the Johnson double-crosses the team, I'd like their to be a reason other than, "Hey, ¥50,000 is ¥50,000." Not only does it help the immersion into the game world, it helps increase the chances that there will be clues. Like in the quote of the original post, the Johnson was slovenly dressed and meeting them in one of the worst dives imaginable.

Hells, I once had a team hideously paranoid about a Johnson that they worked with, because in the second run they did for him, he had provided them with a wealth of intelligence on their target to help them plan. When that intelligence proved to be inaccurate to the degree that they nearly lost half the team, the Johnson was so mortified that he called in magical healing experts, doubled their pay and put them all up in a luxury safe-house for 2 weeks, while making arrangements for them to be able to support their normal lifestyles securely. Freaked them right out, they just didn't know what to make of the guy. Quite simply, he was... nice. Polite, courteous and incredibly supportive. When he realized that the Orc was illiterate, he quietly took her aside and offered to put her in contact with some discreet adult education centers, and even to pay for lessons.
Cleverly disguised as an adult.

Which I think is sort of like arguing that a partial erection should get all the benefits of an erection.

The Cat

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 105
« Reply #18 on: <09-05-11/1416:44> »

10. Johnson is really a cop.  As cop, fed or corp security his job is to get the runners into a position where they can be apprehended with minimal effort and danger.  He'll give them a "sneaky sneaky no-killing infiltration" job on a strict time table that requires them to leave the heavy ordinance behind.  Next thing the team knows, they've wandered right into an ambush against overwhelming force and they're caught without their best toys for such a situation.

OK, gonna play Devil's Advocate for some food for thought here for a moment, so don't take this personaly.  ;)

I know it's just a game, but one would need to be careful over this one becasue of a single word: ENTRAPMENT. Mr. Johnson is specifically hiring the runners to do something illegal. He is the one making the offer, telling the runners what to do/go after/etc, and has initiated the job. Johnson is now directly responsible for and helping the runners commit the crime in question...thats called conspiracy, also a crime, and even more reason why Mr. Johnson IS Mr. Johnson in SR. It's the same reason why all undercover officers must be very careful and not initiate any unlawful activity; why undercover officers posing as prostitutes must let the johns initiate things first and vice versa. It's also why undercover officers working on line to catch predators have to let them make the first move.

You assume they're being arrested for THAT job.  While they could be, SR is a distopia with rampant corruption after all, the Johnson is merely giving them a job that doesn't exist with specific requirements that put non-lethal weapons in their hands making them much easier to arrest.  It's the cops basically tellign them, be at this completely safe location where collateral damage is minimized without your big bang bangs so we can nicely take you into custody in a controled and safe manner.  It's a big sting operation, an outgrowth of the current "Wow!  You have won a boat/season tickets/a new car" stings cops and feds run today.

Secondly, Corp security doesn't have to worry about little things like entrapment.  They don't have to play by those rules, they have their own and can break them at will.

Third, entrapment is only for those with a SIN who you intend to actually let have a trial.

As for why not to grab them at the meet, you don't know what they'll be carrying at the meet.  You don't know how much legwork they will have done about you or the meet.  Beyond that, I rarely, as a player or a GM, have the whole team at the meet.  It's typically handled by two, maybe three people, with the rest of the team somewhere nearby ready for trouble.  The meet could become a shooting gallery with big guns galore and you caught right next to the "bad guys."  Giving them a job where you choose the time and place plus their basic equipment loadout means you've controled the situation and made it more safe than just getting them at the meet where they could be packing serious hardware.  Additionaly, they'll tell you pretty much exactly what their plan is for the job if you make that a requirement for employment.

It's about exerting as much control on the situation as possible to minimize casualities.

By way of a real world example of police doing this.  15 years ago, I roomed with a vice cop in a little town in the carolinas that was almost at the half-way point between Miami and New York on a major highway.  literally tons of drugs flowed through that little town (population under 2,500).  We had mob and drug gang involvement, prostution and street gangs (again, SMALL southern town) just like the big cities, all fighting over turf and drug routes.  I was brought on as an armed reserve officer (also known as the FauxCops back then) because of my assocition with the drug sniffing dog and because I was a new face; I could go out and pick up the "girls/undercover cops" from the prostution stings and get them off the streets without arousing any suspicion if necessary.  The cops would hire a deniable asset (usually some "new guy" who was unknown at the beginning) and make ever increasing buys from a specific set of dealers until they were trusted.  This built the case against the dealers.  Then the trusted buyer would make a big buy, something huge, something that required the stuff be brought in.  The buyer would make some demands, like the location of the delivery and when the delivery was made, the cops were already in place to grab everyone.  They were happy to get the drugs, the money and a few dealers, but what they really wanted was the drivers, the guys who knew where it came from.  But they controlled the situation as much as possible by picking the time and place and, to a degree, the kind of "security" they had to deal with by how much product they ordered.

Mystic

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 982
  • Word Mercenary
« Reply #19 on: <09-05-11/1504:20> »
First time a Johnson starts dictating to me what I can and can't bring on a run, I would automatically think "set up". But then, in any kind of sting operation, and in law enforcement in general, you only catch the stupid ones.
Bringing chaos, mayhem, and occasionally cookies to the Sixth World since 2052!

"Just because it's easy for you doesn't mean it can't be hard on your clients"-Rule 38, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries, Schlock Mercenary.

The Cat

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 105
« Reply #20 on: <09-05-11/1526:26> »
First time a Johnson starts dictating to me what I can and can't bring on a run, I would automatically think "set up". But then, in any kind of sting operation, and in law enforcement in general, you only catch the stupid ones.

You've never had a run where a stipilation was "no casualities" or "no property damage?"

Angelone

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • A decent perfection
« Reply #21 on: <09-05-11/1619:08> »
 No killing is one thing, but when the J says only bring hold out pistols somethings up.
REJOICE! For bad things are about to happen.
la vida no vale nada

The Cat

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 105
« Reply #22 on: <09-05-11/1653:05> »
No killing is one thing, but when the J says only bring hold out pistols somethings up.

And at no point did I indicate they determined what weapons you brought, merely the lethality.  A "no kill" requirement means the team will not be loaded for bear while the cops will be, effectively meaning the team is in a "brought a knife to a gunfight" situation.

By way of example, at the meet the job is described as follows:

"This is a fairly simply straightforward sabotage.  Corp X is prepping four assembly lines for the production of Widget A.  To set up the lines, they've shut down half the factory and are in the process of revamping the lines.  Today is Monday, meaning they're placing the last of the specialized equipment today and tomorrow.  Wednesday they'll load in and test the new software to control the line.  They should be done by around 5 PM.  At 6 AM Thursday, the workers will show up to begin work on the new lines.  Unfortunately, until the line goes live, the control systems are off the matrix.  That gives you a 12 to 13 hour window to hit the facility and insert Program 1 into the control system which will scuttle the lines.  However, our plans require that the facility and its personnel be intact.  The facility itself is valuable to us and the personnel working there are assets we're interested in.  Therefore, we want no casualities at all, no property damage at all.  Any damage will severely reduce your pay.  Your window is limited, you'll have to hit the facility between 5PM Wednesday and 6AM Thursday, while the factory is still partially operating, meaning there wil be workers on-site, getting in and out quietly so they don't suspect the lines have been tampered with.  If they check the contol software before the line is started, they'll quickly figure out the lines have been sabotaged and the whole deal is over.  So, practice restraint."

When the runners show up ready for a quick and quiet "sneak and peek" they find somewhere in the middle that it's not quick, not at all quiet and everyone in the damn place is an armed, High Threat Response cop who's carrying the latest and greatest with a serious disregard for the Runner's well-being.  Worse, just around the block is two more waves of the same who started moving the moment they entered the building.

Angelone

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • A decent perfection
« Reply #23 on: <09-05-11/1725:16> »
Send in the drones first if they see any hrts, bug out. Just because you have a no kill stipulation doesn't mean you can't bring the big guns in case something goes wrong. I'd rather blow a run than end up blown away. 
REJOICE! For bad things are about to happen.
la vida no vale nada

The Cat

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 105
« Reply #24 on: <09-05-11/1740:36> »
Send in the drones first if they see any hrts, bug out. Just because you have a no kill stipulation doesn't mean you can't bring the big guns in case something goes wrong. I'd rather blow a run than end up blown away.

And the drones see a factory with 25 to 30 rather bored workers in standardized jumpsuits and 5 security guards.  Not much of an ambush if they're standing around in uniform now is it?

Fact is, if the Johnson has the kind of resources that a government or a corp has, you will not see it coming when a properly executed ambush pops.  It's AFTER it pops that you can do something about it, and a good GM will have it factored in that you are to escape.  The session isnt what the Johnson wanted you to do, it's recovering and escaping from what the Johnson set you up for.  Remember, the thread is about "Johnson Backstabs" not "Evil GM Fiat Kills."

Deliverator

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 236
« Reply #25 on: <09-05-11/1758:29> »
And for some reason those runners failed to ask the question "If you just want the production lines scuttled, why are we doing it quietly? I have some c4 in the trunk..."

The Cat

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 105
« Reply #26 on: <09-05-11/1800:40> »
And for some reason those runners failed to ask the question "If you just want the production lines scuttled, why are we doing it quietly? I have some c4 in the trunk..."

"However, our plans require that the facility and its personnel be intact.  The facility itself is valuable to us and the personnel working there are assets we're interested in.  Therefore, we want no casualities at all, no property damage at all.  Any damage will severely reduce your pay."

Deliverator

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 236
« Reply #27 on: <09-05-11/1805:31> »
And for some reason those runners failed to ask the question "If you just want the production lines scuttled, why are we doing it quietly? I have some c4 in the trunk..."

"However, our plans require that the facility and its personnel be intact.  The facility itself is valuable to us and the personnel working there are assets we're interested in.  Therefore, we want no casualities at all, no property damage at all.  Any damage will severely reduce your pay."

I didn't say anything about killing anyone, or destroying the facility. You said scuttle, which means to deliberately sink one's own ship... which means destroyed. So if they want the facility intact why send a team in to "scuttle" anything?

The Cat

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 105
« Reply #28 on: <09-05-11/1846:30> »
And for some reason those runners failed to ask the question "If you just want the production lines scuttled, why are we doing it quietly? I have some c4 in the trunk..."

"However, our plans require that the facility and its personnel be intact.  The facility itself is valuable to us and the personnel working there are assets we're interested in.  Therefore, we want no casualities at all, no property damage at all.  Any damage will severely reduce your pay."

I didn't say anything about killing anyone, or destroying the facility. You said scuttle, which means to deliberately sink one's own ship... which means destroyed. So if they want the facility intact why send a team in to "scuttle" anything?

So, let me get this straight, you want to take umbridge at the language used to "rules lawyer" the hypothetical team into having weapons?  The Mr. J provided exacting instructions on what he wanted done and is providing the means to do so.  How he phrased it is immaterial.  He would simply say somethign to the efect of, "we have plans you're not privy to.  I was told you were a team who was professional enough to know how to follow instructions and not ask questions, was my information incorrect?  If I wanted the line blown up, I would have said blow it up, since I did not, I have to question your ability to follow instructions and do a job that requires this sort of subtle touch.  I was under the impression you were recommended as a competent group of covert assets, not a barrens go-gang."

Tailor that to the groups existing reputation.

And they just damaged their ability to negotiate a good price, the Johnson now thinks (we'll really he doesn't because he knows exactly who they are) they're not as good as they were billed to be because someone is being a smartass and playign semantic games with him.  Worse, if the job IS real, they just made a Johnson angry at their inability to understand simple instructions, need to play stupid language games and asking for info they're not privy to.  That'll follow them for a while through a hit to their rep.

If the team walks, they simply snag another team and bust them quietly with an appropriate cover and get the team again later with a similar ploy.

Which leads to the 11th Johnson Backstab: Rep bombed.  The team just cocked up a meet with a Johnson who's got a great rep and looked like total fools.  The Johnson has pretty much burned them for their impertinance and now the only people who will give them jobs are the dregs of the game and those jobs are suicide runs.

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11141
  • Spouter of Random Words
    • CanRay's Artistic Work
« Reply #29 on: <09-05-11/1916:24> »
Especially if English isn't Mr. J's first language.  Which, in a lot of settings, it might not be.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11