[Fallen]

Well, I thought I'd pop in and offer a counter to all the bashing going on here. I've been playing D&D from the old Red Box Beginners Set and have managed to somehow play every edition out there. And, I can truly say one thing on the subject.

The rules don't make the players.

In other words, Roll vs. Role has nothing at all to do with the game system you are using. I've seen Rollplayers take over a Mage: The Awakened game and Roleplayers take over a BattleTech: Solaris VII contest. Are some systems better designed then others? Sure! But that, again, is a matter of personal taste. Some liked 3.0 better than 3.5 in D&D. Others like SAGA edition over WEG Star Wars D6. And others prefer to run GURPs Shadowrun against any of the official rules.

What's the point of all this, you ask? Good question, my young padawans. The point is, before anyone starts complaining about a game system or how they perceive it to be run, remember that Your Mileage May Vary and not every player plays the game like you do. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to play a game in our hobby, just whether or not you and the others in your group are having fun.

I don't think we were actually bashing on a game system so much as conjecturing that it may be plausible that some systems may present themselves in such a way that may appeal more to a certain kind of player than to another.

Granted, however, I personally was quick to jump on the "Meh, D&D isn't all that great" bandwagon.  It's a matter of opinion, as you pointed out.

Otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you brought to the discussion!  The players and GM make the game, not the setting nor the system. 

[LostProxy]

My biggest peeve is when a player doesn't understand his role. An example would be when the mage was too busy shooting mundane stuff to effectively deal with the spirits coming after us. It came down to me, an HVAR, and some APDS to deal with the issue. Very annoying. Or the socially inept riggers attempts at fast talking. A glitch made him accidentally insult the bouncers mother which did not end well for his face.

[Crash_00]

The rules don't make the players, but the rules do make the game and the game influences the players. I didn't say you couldn't roleplay D&D, I said I see more rollplayers playing it than roleplayers.

D&D is a very strict system balance wise. Its hard to tweak without out upsetting the balance somewhere. To top it off, it offers very few rewards for roleplaying in game.

I see many players play D&D as rollplaying game that roleplay games like shadowrun, because its a light game compared to the gritty reality of shadowrun or hell on earth.

On topic, slightly tying into LostProxy's, I hate it when my players insist on always taking the most obvious route to a run no matter how many leads and clues I give them. Then again, I'm an outside the box thinker.

[Fallen]

My biggest peeve is when a player doesn't understand his role. An example would be when the mage was too busy shooting mundane stuff to effectively deal with the spirits coming after us. It came down to me, an HVAR, and some APDS to deal with the issue. Very annoying. Or the socially inept riggers attempts at fast talking. A glitch made him accidentally insult the bouncers mother which did not end well for his face.

I'm of two minds on this.  On one side, I agree that it can get annoying when someone doesn't do what you may expect them to in dealing with a situation.  Yet, on the other, it sometimes (not always) leads to some pretty ingenious ideas that go completely outside of the box.  But, yeah, I totally get where you're coming from.

On topic, slightly tying into LostProxy's, I hate it when my players insist on always taking the most obvious route to a run no matter how many leads and clues I give them. Then again, I'm an outside the box thinker.

That, yeah.  That.  I don't mind it if my players decide to go through the most obvious course of action, not precisely.  It's more the other way around, the way I see it: I love it when they think outside the box and manage to surprise me.  That's the most rewarding part of the job as a GM for me: to be surprised and enthused by an unexpected turn.

[Crash_00]

I know, and I have yet to be surprised by four out of the five groups I've run for. Yet I surprise my GMs 90% of the time.

My biggest problem is that they will storm into a fight they cannot win and botch the run before they even think to do any extra legwork with their contacts. I have one player, who's only there about ten percent of the time, that will actually find a separate, but planned, course of action occasionally and that's it.

[LostProxy]

Oh don't get me wrong I love outside the box thinking but there are those moments where certain characters are needed for a very specific thing and they are nowhere to be found for it.

On the subject of outside the box though one of my favorites was when my CQC specialist character Knight Life was turned to obsidian by the team mage and sent as a gift to the target. In the middle of the night he dropped the spell, I got my gear hidden in the statue base, and let my team in as the party the mark was throwing got into full swing. We would have had the infiltrator do this but as he was also the main hacker it fell to my character. A highlight was he dropped the spell as a drunk couple came stumbling into the art room of this mansion trying to find somewhere to get busy. Que the half naked black guy pulling a silenced SMG out of a base. Thankfully I also had some SnS so we just ended up stuffing them into a closet.

That was particularly out of the box because we had been given invitations to the party. We just decided to be special about it

[Fallen]

I know, and I have yet to be surprised by four out of the five groups I've run for. Yet I surprise my GMs 90% of the time.

My biggest problem is that they will storm into a fight they cannot win and botch the run before they even think to do any extra legwork with their contacts. I have one player, who's only there about ten percent of the time, that will actually find a separate, but planned, course of action occasionally and that's it.

The players I'm currently running the game for sometimes act in that very way.  It's fairly alright, insofar as they're having fun and I, in turn, am having fun with them.  It's not directly problematic so far as the continuity of our sessions go, but it does ultimately lead into a whole lot more trouble than it's worth.  The have started to wise up lately (after realizing they spent more nuyen on ammo, drugs, explosives and hospital bills than what the Run was going to pay them), and I'm currently running them through a sort of "tutorial" game to help them get a bit deeper into the SR mindset (they're all new to this).

Oh don't get me wrong I love outside the box thinking but there are those moments where certain characters are needed for a very specific thing and they are nowhere to be found for it.

Yeah, that can get sucky at times I'll admit.

On the subject of outside the box though one of my favorites was when my CQC specialist character Knight Life was turned to obsidian by the team mage and sent as a gift to the target. In the middle of the night he dropped the spell, I got my gear hidden in the statue base, and let my team in as the party the mark was throwing got into full swing. We would have had the infiltrator do this but as he was also the main hacker it fell to my character. A highlight was he dropped the spell as a drunk couple came stumbling into the art room of this mansion trying to find somewhere to get busy. Que the half naked black guy pulling a silenced SMG out of a base. Thankfully I also had some SnS so we just ended up stuffing them into a closet.

That was particularly out of the box because we had been given invitations to the party. We just decided to be special about it

Hahaha!

Brilliant. 

[Mystic]

Take this for what you will. For me, its more a group ettiquite and respect thing more than anything else.

Of course, not everyone in the same group is going to be as enthusiastic about a particular game. Unfortunately, this is the situation with my group and Shadowrun. But, if I am willing to put forth as much effort, work, and respect (on all levels) for soneone else's game that I may not be as enthusiastic about...can I get a little when it is MY turn?

It reeeeeealy irks me when people just give up, barely try, and just go through the motions after I'm put in the situation of doing all the work the game requires just to turn around an phone it in later or worse, try and speed things up to "get it over with" (usually to go back to the game THEY want to play). Hey, I understand that not everyone likes the same things, but if the group (emphass GROUP as we do a majority vote) gives me the green light to go ahead with a game, let me have my chance as I have given you yours. And if as a group especially, you honestly don't want to play my game, hey just be honest with me BEFORE I write up a story, create NPCs/opposition, Maps, get out and organize my books, and spend money getting the character sheets (etc) that the PCs will need.

[Fallen]

Take this for what you will. For me, its more a group ettiquite and respect thing more than anything else.

Of course, not everyone in the same group is going to be as enthusiastic about a particular game. Unfortunately, this is the situation with my group and Shadowrun. But, if I am willing to put forth as much effort, work, and respect (on all levels) for soneone else's game that I may not be as enthusiastic about...can I get a little when it is MY turn?

It reeeeeealy irks me when people just give up, barely try, and just go through the motions after I'm put in the situation of doing all the work the game requires just to turn around an phone it in later or worse, try and speed things up to "get it over with" (usually to go back to the game THEY want to play). Hey, I understand that not everyone likes the same things, but if the group (emphass GROUP as we do a majority vote) gives me the green light to go ahead with a game, let me have my chance as I have given you yours. And if as a group especially, you honestly don't want to play my game, hey just be honest with me BEFORE I write up a story, create NPCs/opposition, Maps, get out and organize my books, and spend money getting the character sheets (etc) that the PCs will need.

Good points, all.  Thanks for sharing!

[The Big Peat]

Non-group characters. Not necessarily loner types (they can work in a group, just keep to themselves), but characters specifically created to work alone and not be willing to work as a group.

I mean seriously, do you really think I'm going to go through the time to run a game just for you and let the other five players twiddle their thumbs?

And its always justified by saying "well that's my character, I'm just roleplaying", but why in the hell would you make a character for a group game that will not work with the group?

A wise man once said

"When a man excuses his character being an asshole by saying "I'm just playing my character", chances are he's being an asshole himself"

Maybe I'm being a harsh man, but as Crash says its a group game and everyone knows it. Of course, it depends on how annoying the non-groupness is. But as you might see, its one of my pet peeves.

Another quote I'm fond of that is relevant to this thread...

"Build 'em like a rollplayer, play 'em like a roleplayer" - the two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Finally, my biggest pet peeve is having to explain to a GM what a Johnson is. No, I'm not making that up.

[Fallen]

A wise man once said

"When a man excuses his character being an asshole by saying "I'm just playing my character", chances are he's being an asshole himself"

I think that wise man may be on to something!

"Build 'em like a rollplayer, play 'em like a roleplayer" - the two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

+1 for truth

Finally, my biggest pet peeve is having to explain to a GM what a Johnson is. No, I'm not making that up.

That!

Well, that -- I unno what to say about that.  Makes me a sad panda.

[Stahlseele]

Elves.
Yes, Elves.
As in, the whole elvish Race.
Because of how they tend to be described and played . .
Even the NPC's . .

[Fallen]

Elves.
Yes, Elves.
As in, the whole elvish Race.
Because of how they tend to be described and played . .
Even the NPC's . .

What, like arrogant, pompous snobs?

[Blond Goth Girl]

1.  Flakiness - As in last minute cancellations.  I'll kick someone out in a heartbeat for it.
2.  OOC Disruptions - If you're not here to play, catch us on movie night instead.

In reference to the role play discussion, I tell folks that my game is pretty much a very plot heavy LARP with dice.

[Stahlseele]

Elves.
Yes, Elves.
As in, the whole elvish Race.
Because of how they tend to be described and played . .
Even the NPC's . .

What, like arrogant, pompous snobs?

worse.
arrogant, pompous snobs that i am not allowed to kill for being arrogant, pompous snobs . .