[Onion Man]

I've found that it really depends on the system. I haven't played SR4A with enough people to get a feel yet, but I've played several others.
D&D 4E = Rollplayers > Roleplayers
Pathfinder = Rollplayers > Roleplayers
D&D 3.5= Rollplayers > Roleplayers
SR3= Rollplayers < Roleplayers
Deadlands = Rollplayers < Roleplayers
7th Sea= Rollplayers < Roleplayers
Hunter = Rollplayers < Roleplayers

These are of course just my observations from playing, but it seems to me that for the most part, classless and level less systems tend to get in more roleplaying while the other are more about the Rollplaying. Given D&D 3.5/Pathfinder/D&D4 are all pretty much a level based miniature wargame so it makes sense to value stats over role and fluff.

Yeah... 3.x ended the era of role-playing in D&D and ushered in what I call rule-playing (there are builds where you can show up with proofs instead of dice if your DM understands math), or alternately competitive algebra.

My two big beefs are both relevant to one of the games I'm in now.  One, when a player really thinks they like to play a role, but all evidence shows that they really don't like playing the character they made.  The other is the mini-cliques that form when groups sort of merge.  Drives me nuts.

[Fallen]

Yeah... 3.x ended the era of role-playing in D&D and ushered in what I call rule-playing (there are builds where you can show up with proofs instead of dice if your DM understands math), or alternately competitive algebra.

 

My two big beefs are both relevant to one of the games I'm in now.  One, when a player really thinks they like to play a role, but all evidence shows that they really don't like playing the character they made.  The other is the mini-cliques that form when groups sort of merge.  Drives me nuts.

Has it happened a lot in your experience?  Groups merging like this?

[Onion Man]

Not too often, but I've been doing this for decades, so it's come up enough to be a pet peeve.  Ends up like a high school group project with say 3 jocks and 3 nerds assigned to work together.  Hard to break down those social barriers and get people to form new connections when they can fall back on their clique.

[Fallen]

Not too often, but I've been doing this for decades, so it's come up enough to be a pet peeve.  Ends up like a high school group project with say 3 jocks and 3 nerds assigned to work together.  Hard to break down those social barriers and get people to form new connections when they can fall back on their clique.

I bet.

[Crash_00]

I don't think its rules so much as the way characters are created that causes the rollplaying factor in the D&D games.

In D&D its perfectly fine to think I want to play a fighter, and while you may have to make choices to reflect your skills a bit or your fighting style, you never have to put anymore thought into who your character is.

This leads to the following scenario:
So what's your character's name?
I'm a dwarf fighter.
Ok, but what's you name?
Oh, I didn't worry about that yet. I'll figure it out later.
Well were are you from?
If I haven't chosen a name how would I know where I'm from. I've got stats, let's play.

In most other games there is a very heavy emphasis on who you character is. In SR even if you don't make a background you have: contacts, qualities, lifestyles, and knowledge skills to help bring more life to your character.

[CanRay]

OK, I know I tend to give some massive data dumps, but they're not *THAT* large.

I just want the backstory that explains parts of the storyline that's 20+ years going on to be read so the group can figure out what I'm talking about in-game without derailing my train of thought to explain everything...

[Fallen]

I don't think its rules so much as the way characters are created that causes the rollplaying factor in the D&D games.

In D&D its perfectly fine to think I want to play a fighter, and while you may have to make choices to reflect your skills a bit or your fighting style, you never have to put anymore thought into who your character is.

This leads to the following scenario:
So what's your character's name?
I'm a dwarf fighter.
Ok, but what's you name?
Oh, I didn't worry about that yet. I'll figure it out later.
Well were are you from?
If I haven't chosen a name how would I know where I'm from. I've got stats, let's play.

In most other games there is a very heavy emphasis on who you character is. In SR even if you don't make a background you have: contacts, qualities, lifestyles, and knowledge skills to help bring more life to your character.

Very true.  I guess it's kind of why I gradually stepped away from D&D -- and, last time I played?  I couldn't take it seriously enough.  I rolled a quirky character, with an even quirkier name: Talentine Aphrodisiac, an elven bardess.  It was hilarious, and the group I was in had a ball with her.

This also makes me think of an anecdote a friend shared about a LARP experience he had and wherein someone came up to him and introduced himself thusly: "Hi, I'm Dagger.  I'm a thief." 

[Fallen]

I just want the backstory that explains parts of the storyline that's 20+ years going on to be read so the group can figure out what I'm talking about in-game without derailing my train of thought to explain everything...

I gave up on that line of thought a good long while ago.  I never expect people to read about the setting of any game I've run, mostly because the responses I got were too often something like: "You mean... I have to read?" 

[CanRay]

I just want the backstory that explains parts of the storyline that's 20+ years going on to be read so the group can figure out what I'm talking about in-game without derailing my train of thought to explain everything...

I gave up on that line of thought a good long while ago.  I never expect people to read about the setting of any game I've run, mostly because the responses I got were too often something like: "You mean... I have to read?" 

...

...

...

RAY SMASH!!!

[Fallen]

...

...

RAY SMASH!!!

Pretty much sums it up!

[Crash_00]

OK, I know I tend to give some massive data dumps, but they're not *THAT* large.

I have a hard time finding GMs that enjoy my story of play, because I do tend to create massive backgrounds. My last SR3 game I had a twenty page background written up, fifteen pages of detailed contacts (I was a face and contacts were cheaper in SR3), and seven pages on my enemies.

My GM read...my character sheet. That was it. Given the game didn't last long, he simply couldn't handle our outside the box handling of every run.

That said, I don't expect that much from my players when I'm running a home game. I expect:
What was your career/upbringing, Why are You Running, A Name, and names for your damn contacts (although I tend to provide a list of contacts for people to choose from in addition to making their own. If they don't name a contact and just give a job to it, i pick one off the list).

I would have a problem though if I asked: Who are you playing, and my player replied: a dwarf street sam, I haven't named him yet.

Very true.  I guess it's kind of why I gradually stepped away from D&D -- and, last time I played?  I couldn't take it seriously enough.  I rolled a quirky character, with an even quirkier name: Talentine Aphrodisiac, an elven bardess.  It was hilarious, and the group I was in had a ball with her.

That's how Jellian Lee Floustan came about. I also played a halfling ...uhm...scribe in a PbP game that constantly acted as though he was a wizard in training (couldn't cast spells but did all the lore and knowledge checks). He was really an assassin and would take out most of the enemies without the rest of the group noticing. I don't think it would have worked in a normal game, but it was awesome in the PbP game.

[Onion Man]

I don't think its rules so much as the way characters are created that causes the rollplaying factor in the D&D games.

In D&D its perfectly fine to think I want to play a fighter, and while you may have to make choices to reflect your skills a bit or your fighting style, you never have to put anymore thought into who your character is.

This leads to the following scenario:
So what's your character's name?
I'm a dwarf fighter.
Ok, but what's you name?
Oh, I didn't worry about that yet. I'll figure it out later.
Well were are you from?
If I haven't chosen a name how would I know where I'm from. I've got stats, let's play.

In most other games there is a very heavy emphasis on who you character is. In SR even if you don't make a background you have: contacts, qualities, lifestyles, and knowledge skills to help bring more life to your character.

Semi-true, but in 3.x if fighter is among your list of classes, you've made a horrible, horrible mistake.  The rules make being a fighter at all so disadvantageous that you'd get laughed away from a grand prix table while the druids, clerics, mages, and rogues completed the adventure, most likely leaving you and your dead weight behind at the first convenient juncture (after the first encounter, when you died in the first round of GOTCHA).

There are so many things wrong with the d20 system that it's hard to pick a point to start tearing it down at.  The homogenization of all martial characters into dual wielding rogues or (anything but a fighter)/rogues with trip spamming and the rise of the -zillas is pretty high up there though.  Add to that the failures of fat sumo and bigger and bigger, dozens of feats of dubious value (everything combat related except for tripping), the existence of save or die spells and the consequent class spamming necessary to play at a competitive level and expect to survive the inevitable save or dies you'll face time and time again, AND the fact that the rulebooks went from being primarily about character design to being primarily about how the combat mechanic works and you've got a nightmare of a game.  Flawed from start to finish.

4E repaired some of it with better mechanics and faster gameplay, but 4E has it's own host of failures that I don't even want to delve into.  Suffice it to say that PHB3 was the last straw for me.

[Fallen]

I would have a problem though if I asked: Who are you playing, and my player replied: a dwarf street sam, I haven't named him yet.

I actually had to step in with one of my players when he initially gave his Runner his street name.  It was: "Other Guy".  I unno.  To me, there's a lot that goes into a name in any game I find a "serious" enough premise to participate in.

I have a hard time finding GMs that enjoy my story of play, because I do tend to create massive backgrounds. My last SR3 game I had a twenty page background written up, fifteen pages of detailed contacts (I was a face and contacts were cheaper in SR3), and seven pages on my enemies.

My GM read...my character sheet. That was it. Given the game didn't last long, he simply couldn't handle our outside the box handling of every run.

Funny.  Because, as a GM, that's pretty much the best case scenario for me so far as players go.  I've only had a handful of the like but they made for some very memorable gaming.

[FastJack]

Well, I thought I'd pop in and offer a counter to all the bashing going on here. I've been playing D&D from the old Red Box Beginners Set and have managed to somehow play every edition out there. And, I can truly say one thing on the subject.

The rules don't make the players.

In other words, Roll vs. Role has nothing at all to do with the game system you are using. I've seen Rollplayers take over a Mage: The Awakened game and Roleplayers take over a BattleTech: Solaris VII contest. Are some systems better designed then others? Sure! But that, again, is a matter of personal taste. Some liked 3.0 better than 3.5 in D&D. Others like SAGA edition over WEG Star Wars D6. And others prefer to run GURPs Shadowrun against any of the official rules.

What's the point of all this, you ask? Good question, my young padawans. The point is, before anyone starts complaining about a game system or how they perceive it to be run, remember that Your Mileage May Vary and not every player plays the game like you do. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to play a game in our hobby, just whether or not you and the others in your group are having fun.

[CanRay]

It's the Universe that makes things matter.  The rules are just how we get there.