[Naielo]

Hi i used to play shadowrun all the time i even GM'd it at one point. but all this was back a long time ago in 3rd edition. i have never played a magic character and so i decided to when joining this new group that i would make a mage the origional concept of the character has changed significantly from an illusion/demolitions mage to basically a combat mage.

 Ironically after rolling the mage the group decided they would make new characters aswell. The groups makeup is very magically active, we have my combat mage another very competent combat mage, a street kid mage (who has magic 3-4), a physical adept, a dracoform and a Latent awakening character (that will most likely be shapeshifting into a kat). the dracoform is my Girlfriend who is very much into dragons and the physical adepts is played by a person who really likes story so, so their ability to combat magical opponents is unkown but i would expect it to be low, or atleast less agressive.

with basically My character and the other combat mage as the only strong counters to Magical opponents we are runnning into what we feel to be INSANELY strong magical defenses. we had combat last week with a group of 4 mages who were somewhere in the initaite 4 area (magic attribute 8-9) that summoned F6 Elementals like they were nothing. Luckly the didnt directly engage us or we would have been smoked, but we couldnt scratch them (we were just trying to talk to them when they started slinging spells).

This week we are currently in a resteraunt trying to steal a thermus, the upstairs of the building that holds the thermus has a F8 ward on it so neither i nor the other combat mage can go up cause of the concern of not being able to come back down (in a rush) cause of foci/quickened spells.

we are 400bp and we are basically feeling like we are being hamstringed by the insane strength of the magical wards, and surplus in magical security. now i do expect more since we have lots of magic in our group but a F8 ward our only real option is blasting it down. a multiple F6 Spirits are well beyond us aswell.

and the Campaign isnt a high powered ones, our payout has been relativly low. in our 4 weeks of playing we have had a 300¥ a 1000¥ a 2000¥ and another 1000¥ payout.

Basically i would like to know what levels of magic sucurity should a new group expect? is there something i am missing that would make the above issues easy or easier to solve? or should i speak to the GM about the level of magical security he is putting in?

[Charybdis]

A) A F8 ward is basically tissue paper to a group as magically power ful as you. The Drake should be able to rip it to pieces in seconds, and 1-2 mages using Astral combat will punch it to death ion short order

B) If all else fails, the Shattershield spell is perfect for destroying wards

C) Because you're a magically heavy group, you will face more magic as a challenge. I think the GM is doing the right thing here, otherwise you'd be dealing with more guns, bullets, hacking and matrix combat without any way to attack or defend yourselves. The GM is using more magic to balance the campaign, and so while a F8 ward is not normally a low-level obstacle, to you guys it should barely be a hurdle....

[JimC]

I agree.  For a magic-heavy party the GM has to adjust the threat level in order to keep the magic tossers from walking over the opposition.

Whenever I GM, in order to keep the team mages from stun-blasting their way through everything I use a combination of the following:
       1) Drones... every building should have non-wi-fi drones on rails circling the perimeter, and laser-controlled drones in the halls (these can't be remote-hacked, and require a hacker or rigger to crack the hardware of the building to gain access).
       2) Thermal smoke w/ultrasonic goggles (mages can't target with digital enhancements, so always get huge penalties casting a spell through thermal smoke).
       3) magical defenses (even low-level plant or guardian spirits are great for spell defense).

I try not to go for over-kill, but a group should always worry about what they're going against.

[Naielo]

my post wasnt supposed to be about me complaining about the level of security he has been using, but more concerned that it is too much.


bascally a F8 ward limits us to smashing it down (which alerts all involved in creating the ward) and fighting everyone in the building. which was my concern, as it really limits what we can do.

Its not a problem, i  can deal with in in another way.

Thanks
Naielo

[beowulf_of_wa]

ok totally sidetracking because of this:

Thermal smoke w/ultrasonic goggles (mages can't target with digital enhancements, so always get huge penalties casting a spell through thermal smoke).

bio-radar would work here right? but that's for technomancers.
i forgot if SR has a "shared sight" type spell. basically the mage equivalent to the group tactical display.

if not i can see it actually being a 2 part spell, a ritual to everyone in the group, and a quick spell to activate and maintain for active use.
of course, magically linking the entire group with mana may cause some issues for them when fighting magical threats,,,

[Naielo]

mages can target using cyberware enhancements right?

[beowulf_of_wa]

as i  recall, no.
i could be wrong though.

[farothel]

They can cast magic through everything they paid essence for.  So if you add something to your eyes and pay in essence, you can.  If you add it to a set of cybereyes using capacity, you can't.  At least, I think it's that way.  I'm sure about the essence thing.

But as mage you want to stay away from anything cyber related.  It hurts your magic too much.

[Charybdis]

my post wasnt supposed to be about me complaining about the level of security he has been using, but more concerned that it is too much.


bascally a F8 ward limits us to smashing it down (which alerts all involved in creating the ward) and fighting everyone in the building. which was my concern, as it really limits what we can do.

Its not a problem, i  can deal with in in another way.

Thanks
Naielo

This is exactly the same as a Street Sam getting stuck with an un-hackable door. Sometimes the brute force method is indeed the only way...

What you can do though, is have nasty surprises waiting for anyone that comes running to investigate.
Also, there's a great spell for peering through wards... I think it was actually called Astral Window... but don't have my books on me to check...

Oh, and it's still possible to sleaze through such a ward using Magic plus Charisma (or Willpower?) plus Edge... but unlikely.
My recommendation would be to
A) prepare for trouble...
B) try sleazing through the ward, then if that fails,
C) break it to pieces and deal with the consequences

[Wayfinder]

To answer the side questions about spell targeting

SR4a p.183
A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bioenhancements
paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but
any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s
own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc.—cannot be used

Since enhancements like low-light vision are subsystems to the cybereyes they would be paid for with Essence. The only reference I found was in the FAQ about targeting for a blind Magician.

In the case of enhanced senses, the enhanced sense must be integral to the character (i.e., cyberears with audio enhancement would work, but earplugs with audio enhancement would not).

[beowulf_of_wa]

next stop, Cyber for mages. this months special: ultra sound and radar!! 10% of with purchase of both!!

[Lacynth40]

That, and the cyber does not work for astral, so something cluttering up the astral space is all kinds of fun...

[Lacynth40]

On a slightly related note, cybereyes aren't really that bad in investment for mages.... Yeah, it's a hit to essence, just make sure you get high-grade cyberware, and you can always initiate to get the Magic rating back... Yeah, it's quite a hit to karma, which magicians and adepts go through like candy anyway, but being able to target a spell like a sniper from a mile away on a clear day is worth it...

[Charybdis]

On a slightly related note, cybereyes aren't really that bad in investment for mages.... Yeah, it's a hit to essence, just make sure you get high-grade cyberware, and you can always initiate to get the Magic rating back... Yeah, it's quite a hit to karma, which magicians and adepts go through like candy anyway, but being able to target a spell like a sniper from a mile away on a clear day is worth it...

I've played a couple of mages with Ware.... most was 1.9'ish essence (Smartlink, Cyber-eyes, some bioware),. The two points to magic hurt, but the utility of the other ware saved his @ss on more than a few occasions (Sleep regulator, Trauma Dampener, *cough SR3 Mnemonic Enhancer * cough*)....sometimes it's worth the effort, but it's all about choice...

[Captain Karzak]

next stop, Cyber for mages. this months special: ultra sound and radar!! 10% of with purchase of both!!

"Both radar sense and ultrasound produce computer generated composite representations of the feedback from non-visual sensor arrays. These replace/overlay the normal visual sensorium and do not allow/constitute a visual link to target for spellcasting purposes."

This was posted by Peter Taylor [Synner], the Line Developer for Shadowrun 4e in this topic http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20692&st=75 over on Dumpshock. Post number 89, for reference.

I think there was another thread on this forum that was also asking about whether RADAR/Ultrasound provided a visual link, but I can't seem to remember which one...


EDIT: Do'h! Linked to wrong thread. Corrected now.