[FastJack]

*ahem*

Let's not get another thread locked, shall we?

[kirk]

I like/hate extra IPs for reasons others have stated. Putting on my GM House rule hat, I think a balance could be achieved by making a few tweaks. The obvious ones to me are hard limits and diminishing returns.

Hard caps are easy. "I don't care if you've become a god, you only get this many IPs."

Diminishing returns are trickier but have many variations. For example: A second IP gets everything a first gets. A third gets only a simple and/or free. Fourth gets a free action only.  Alternate: treat like increasing attributes. 1 "boost" for each rating of increase past the first. So the second IP costs two "boosts", the third costs three, the fourth four...  You want five IPs? That's fourteen boosts, and they don't come easy.

Given the intent (making players keep at least /some/ uniqueness) I'd lean toward a cap. Barring godhood there are only so many things that can be done in three seconds.

[Crash_00]

Well, I disagree with all of the reasoning for getting rid of IPs, but I believe they need some serious work and retooling or to be replaced.

I don't like the fact that my speed demon with Move by Wire 3 can only move a quarter of his movement during at the same time that a normal person moves their full movement. I honestly think that extra IPs should always give you a movement increase, and that you should be allowed to split movement across IPs freely (I always hoped I was horribly misreading the movement rules).

That said, I've been toying around with a system that reduces the number of Initiative passes by making the first IP granting bit of cyber/bio/magic/drug) give two free simple actions, the second giving a second IP with two simple actions and the third giving a second IP with four.

Example:
Normal = 2 Simple Actions, 1 IP
Wired Reflexes 1 = 4 Simple Actions, 1 IP
Wired Reflexes 2 = 4 Simple Actions (1st), 2 Simple Actions (2nd), 2 IP
Wired Reflexes 3 = 4 Simple Actions, 2 IP

It makes wired characters more powerful as they get their actions in one burst, but it makes things go by so much faster in the little testing I've done with it. It also allows for more layers (a minor implant that gives +1 Simple Action?).

[Onion Man]

Kirk, three seconds can be a very, very long time.  Sure, there's a limit to what can be done in 3 seconds, but anyone that's ever played basketball, raced, rode a bull, or had to deal with my ex-wife knows just how long 3 seconds can really be.

Someone posted a speedshooting video of a man firing 6 rounds, reloading a revolver (with a speedloader), and firing off 6 more rounds in just under 2 seconds if I recall correctly.  That's well above and beyond what you can squeeze out in 4 IPs and that's just a normal, incredibly fast and talented man (no fanning, 12 trigger pulls).  3 seconds in a sport fight (former wrestler here) is nothing doing, but 3 seconds in a street fight (been in my share of barfights, probably your share of them too) is an eternity and the possibility of being stabbed 4 times in 3 seconds isn't a stretch by any means.

Also, the law of diminishing marginal returns should dissuade most players from ever even seeking that 4th IP, and will keep many from even getting a 3rd.  The game could be capped at 8 IPs and I still wouldn't personally go for more than 3 ever again... that third pass just comes up too infrequently to be of the same value as the second, and the fourth is next to useless and most likely a major points or Nuyen sink.

Crash, the idea of implants giving actions instead of passes is similar to how the system myself and my creative partner are constructing works... but we don't have a passes mechanic to speak of.

[JoeNapalm]

The "unaugmented maximum" of 4 shots in 3 seconds with a pistol? That's not even hurrying.

With 4 IPs, you could crank off 12 shots...that's definitely fast, no doubt. In reality, though, a reasonably talented combat shooter could do that, at a range of probably 7 yards, and put them all on target.

I shoot in steel matches and other timed courses of fire on a regular basis - combat in SR4 doesn't happen too quickly. If anything, for the unaugmented, it's much too slow. (Three seconds to insert a fresh magazine, and you're not even on the move? Maybe if you've been shot in the hand...)

But that's okay, because - as I have often observed - SR4 combat is not a simulation, it's an abstraction. It's a set of rules that is striving to model a very, very complex and variable environment as quickly and cinematically as possible. They've slowed it down to make it more playable.

But it's certainly not unrealistically fast.

-Jn-
City of Brass Expatraite

[CanRay]

When it comes down to things that really matter, a single heartbeat is a lifetime.  Three seconds, an eternity.

[Shadowjack]

I don't want to get this thread locked because of another dispute between OnionMan, JoeNapalm and I. So I will proceed with relative caution. I do realize this post won't win me any fans but I do not enjoy the same duo trolling my threads and then when I defend myself the thread is locked, so  I ask again, please do not lock this thread.

@JoeNapalm I have encountered you twice and both times the first post you made was rather abrasive and simply because I disagreed with you, you were borderline violent in your posts. I will not respond kindly to such behavior and I can see this will be a trend so I will try to take the peaceful route and no longer argue any points with you. That being said, I think you are a good guy at heart and I don't think you have any ill intentions. (Other than smiting me every time I disagree with you lol)

@OnionMan "if you disagree with me you're wrong and stupid"." This is quite ironic coming from you. It seems to me that every time you are wrong in any thread you will ramble on about gaming theories and other things as a method to avoid losing face and present yourself as an authority on the topic. You are basically bullying your opinions around the forums and in general, you demonstrate an air of superiority which is both undeserving and delusional. Furthermore, I have no desire to debate anything with you as I find it unpleasant and there is no possibility of changing your mind as your opinion is always correct, even when proven incorrect.

It's too bad that you feel the need to troll another thread which will probably get locked despite my *attempt* to be somewhat peaceful about things. Until now I have responded to your posts but don't expect any responses from me in the future.

Back to the topic at hand: Combat speed can be represented in many ways other than extra turns. I have played many pen and paper rpgs and I've never seen one in which one character can act at an 8:1 ratio(8 shots vs 1 melee swing). Everyone should have fun on their turn by taking actions with their character. It is not so appealing to take a single action and then watch the next 4 characters take 32 actions. This is both time consuming and boring. I do love the game but I firmly believe that extra IP's are a big flaw.  In any game, taking extra turns is usually the most powerful mechanic. This is certainly the case in Shadowrun and this is evident because the majority of players exercise this "option". Because so many players go for IP's, this absolutely detracting from character diversity.

Ryo shares many of my opinions on this and I'm glad to see others agree on some level. @Ryo, did you make new rules for Wired Reflexes and its counterparts? If so, I'd be interested to see what you came up with.

[kirk]

Onion Man, I don't want to drag in Real World - if I did I'd go back to Rolemaster or one of the other billion charts for every move games.  That said, there are still limits on how much a person can do in three seconds, even in the real world.

The problem is we're playing a game. A game is supposed to be fun for all the players at least most of the time.  The question is whether too many IPs break the fun. The corollary question is how we prevent that break.  The working suggestion that opened the conversation was that one solution is no IPs.

Now it happens I think SOME IP variation adds to the fun and flavor, but that is just my opinion. It also happens that I've been in the situation of having one IP and seeing Sammy and Magus both with four IPs. That was, for me, not fun - again, an opinion, but that is what was requested.

For what it's worth I'll add my 'wild hair' suggestion.  Allow additional IPs to create a dice pool. Hits give extra actions, fit in somewhere in the sequence that causes the most fun with least pain.

[Seeker]

I'm throwing my two nuyen down here.

The idea that removing options makes more variety sounds farfetched.  It sounds like the ol' "What do you put in a bucket to make it lighter?" riddle.

But, Shadowjack's right.  Sort of.

Whether I'm spending 3BP, 10BP, or 16BP; every character I make gets an extra IP.  And this is just mundane costs.  But, that's at minimum 3BP that is not going towards an option that makes my character more interesting as a character.  That is BP that is only going to make a character worth staying awake for when bullets start flying.  It isn't BP going to make another cool contact, or be a little better at a side business of gun repair, or a quality that makes my character more unique.

I know that it is easy to get a pass, and that there are at least 5(6?) different ways to increase them.  But all you are doing at that point is saying, this is a MUST HAVE so we are giving you some different flavors to work with.

Now, saying this.  I don't have a problem with passes in my game.  My group doesn't want that fourth pass.  Only the Expat UCAS soldier, and the Troll Melee Specialist even care about the third one.  Because of this, it isn't an arms race for passes; and the later passes go by with a quickness.

[CanRay]

Children, I know most(?) of the Mods are likely at GenCon, but that's no reason not to behave.

I don't have a mod voice or lockout ability, but I can give you such a talking to!

[StarManta]

My opinion is that the Reaction attribute and Initiative Passes should be more closely linked. Which is to say, it makes little sense to me that an unaugmented character with Reaction 6 can do fewer things in a combat turn than someone with Wired Reflexes and (modified) Reaction rating of 4 who has 4 initiative passes. And similarly, it makes little sense that such an augmented character would likely go second in combat, despite being absurdly fast.

Something along the general lines of: the number of Initiative Passes you get is equal to your modified Reaction attribute / 3 rounded up, and Wired Reflexes adds 3 Reaction as opposed to +1 Reaction and +1 IP. Augmented maximum for Reaction could be 15ish.

[StarManta]

And, allow me to, if I may, attempt to clarify Shadow's point. "Fewer options means more variety" is obviously a counterintuitive argument, but it's not automatically wrong.

On the spectrum of character builds, with regard to combat, there's a continuum: "combat-focused" vs. "non-combat focused" (many mages, hackers, riggers, faces). The former have automatic guns or powerful spells or highly optimized melee skills and adept powers, and they ALL have several IP's. the latter NEVER do.

So in combat, what happens? The non-combat characters duck and cover, and don't do a goddamn thing during a firefight. This leaves the "combat-focused" end of the continuum in the fight.

In a non-IP driven game, the non-combat characters might be more inclined to stick around and fire a shot, and most likely being in Full Defense a lot, but doing something. The pussy characters can't shoot well, but they can fire a couple of bullets, and it's a thrill if they get in a lucky shot. So instead of 3 over specced gun bunnies and 3 non-participants in a firefight, you now have 3 gun bunnies and 3 lousy shots. This if I understand correctly is Shadowjack's "more variety".

Or it could be this: Not being obligated (by virtue of being a combat character) to spend 3 or 5 Essence (or Power Points, or w/e) on IP's, could free up more Essence to spend on more interesting and varied augmentations.

Either way, Initiative Passes are in my view fake variety, because every combat character is obligated to have them.

[PH_dungeon]

Well I agree that the multiple initiative pass mechanic is kind of annoying. I would prefer everyone just have the same number of actions per round. However, if I were designing the game I would still allow for cyberware that boosts one's initiative score (say reaction enhancers) and thus gives that person a better chance of getting the first shot off. I'd probably make non security/military grade body armor a little less effective, and have some mechanic for capping off about a half dozen rounds in quick succession from a semi-automatic without actually having to roll multiple attacks. I'd probably also do something with more realistic rules for called shots. The result would likely be quicker and more deadly combat, and I think Shadowrun is well suited to this style of play. I could probably houserule a bunch of that stuff now, but I haven't quite worked out the details well enough to bother implementing such changes yet.

[Crash_00]

I've played several characters in normal campaigns that have 1 IP. I wasn't really bored, and I always did something in combat. I don't really buy into the 2 IPs is a must to be useful in combat theory.

There is also the very cheap way to get extra IPs, 1 BP buys a lot of Jazz or (insert IP drug of choice here).

I do feel that unarmed characters are slightly less effective than ranged characters, but I don't feel that its a problem. There is a reason you're more likely to find a gun in a home (for self defense) than a sword in modern times. They're easier to use effectively, and very very fast.

Crash, the idea of implants giving actions instead of passes is similar to how the system myself and my creative partner are constructing works... but we don't have a passes mechanic to speak of.

Its how my keep two system works as well, but its not really a pass system either.

On that subject, how would everyone feel about an action point system?

[StarManta]

The key problem here is that in combat characters with 1 IP stand no chance against those with many. One solution could be reducing your dice pools in exchange for the extra IP's. For example, MBW specifically says that muscle twitches and that sort of thing are common when the system is active, so perhaps a -2 or -4 Agility dice pool modifier in exchange for 2 IP's? You can get off more shots, but they're not as steady.

This approach  could also add some variety between the difference IP enhancers. MBW could reduce Agility, Wired Reflexes could reduce something else, but maybe the Increase Reflexes spell reduces Willpower (making Mage+gunbunny partnerships more effective, as a side effect). Hotsimming already has its own downside (Physical damage versus Stun).

With these sort of modifiers it might be possible to make a 1 IP character who's not worthless in combat.