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Wired Reflexes Balanced?

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Tsuzua

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« Reply #15 on: <07-22-11/2324:40> »
Combat essentially breaks down (IMO) to an action economy, but unlike games like D&D, each action has a very realistic chance of backfiring on you and two of your 3 most precious resources (Edge and nuyen) are refiled at a variable rate.  There are definite advantages to being able to go more often than your opponent, but you have to essentially budget for the extra Edge and bullet use that occurs when you do (this gets really bad when you have more IPs and 2 or 4 arms all taking actions separately by dividing dice pools).

If you're seriously worried about glitching when attacking to the point of banking extra edge for it, then something has gone horribly wrong either with your RNG or dice pool size.  And even if you're shooting SnS out of a Supermach 100, that's only 96Y a pass.  I know shadowrun pay is terrible, but it's not that bad. 

The problem is that offense is better than defense in SR especially if you don't use cyberlimb armor.  Thus each IP is worth less since there's a good chance either you've already won, lost, or it's basically just a wrap up.  After IP 3, you've fired 6 times (or cast 3 times).  If the fight hasn't been decided by then, the next 2 shots or spell likely don't matter.  Sure I'll take more IPs for free, but they cost more and more.

You do want a second IP.  But a second IP is cheap (worst case buy cram).  A third IP is quite nice and not that hard to get.  The fourth is just too pricey.  You do care a lot of initiative though so be sure to get that high as you reasonably afford.

Wired Reflexes aren't that bad.  Wired Reflexes 2 eats up 3 points of essence, but if you're mundane you don't care.  Unless you have widgetitis and load up on crud (a lot of ware isn't worth their nuyen price much less then essence cost), you can get everything you want with the 3 last points.  You can make essence go a long way.  Sure mages get Increase Reflexes and in some ways it's better since it increases initiative directly and thus stacks amazingly well.

There was a lot of hand wringing over wired reflexes in older editions.  This was because your "IPs" and initiative were one and the same.  So if you got a lot higher roll than everyone else, you could go multiple times before anyone else could act.  So initiative boosters were a big deal and there was some optional rules to hose them (including a jumpiness roll that was made just so reaction triggers had an use).  I recall it was harder for mages to buff their own initiative, but this was back in 2nd edition days so my memory is hazy on the subtle balances back then.   

I must admit our group didn't catch the movement spread over multiple IP for everyone rule until quite recently.  To be fair, we haven't really cared too much about movement (no map) and we all generally had 3 IPs. 

FastJack

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« Reply #16 on: <07-23-11/0042:47> »
Heh... sometimes I like to play dirty with the movement rates and combat passes. By which, I mean that I'll let PCs/NPCs move their full rate each pass. And if certain characters have more passes than others...

I look at it like the old animes where they moved so fast, their opponents didn't even realize they were dead already. ;)

jago668

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« Reply #17 on: <07-23-11/1558:57> »
Heh... sometimes I like to play dirty with the movement rates and combat passes. By which, I mean that I'll let PCs/NPCs move their full rate each pass. And if certain characters have more passes than others...

I look at it like the old animes where they moved so fast, their opponents didn't even realize they were dead already. ;)

This is how we've always played, and for pretty much the exact same reasons.

Onion Man

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« Reply #18 on: <07-23-11/1607:15> »
Heh... sometimes I like to play dirty with the movement rates and combat passes. By which, I mean that I'll let PCs/NPCs move their full rate each pass. And if certain characters have more passes than others...

I look at it like the old animes where they moved so fast, their opponents didn't even realize they were dead already. ;)
That's got its own wonk to it.

If I were in a game like that, I'd be starting fights any time I needed to get anywhere quickly with my celerity, 4 IPs, raptor legs, and roller skates.  (I'd for sure have all of those if I could move 4 times as fast as the adjusted speed for a total 10x rate).

This is how we've always played, and for pretty much the exact same reasons.
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farothel

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« Reply #19 on: <07-23-11/1645:50> »
I've never made a character with the full 4 IP.  It simply costs too much (essence, adept power points, power 4 sustaining focus).  On the other hand I don't have many characters without a way to get at least 2 IP.  Even my hacker has 2.  The street sams and combat adepts I normally give 3.  That I think is the good compromise between affordability and combat power.

As for ammo, if you use regular ammo, the cost isn't all that much.  I have this gun bunny character with two machine pistols and 3 IP.  That comes down to 18 bullets/turn/gun, but at the other side they will go down (defence goes down for every attack, and with 4 short bursts/IP for the two guns at the end not many people have defence left).
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usefulidiot

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« Reply #20 on: <07-23-11/1746:06> »
Heh... sometimes I like to play dirty with the movement rates and combat passes. By which, I mean that I'll let PCs/NPCs move their full rate each pass. And if certain characters have more passes than others...

I look at it like the old animes where they moved so fast, their opponents didn't even realize they were dead already. ;)

Im also with FastJack on this one. We have always played it this way too for the exact same reason, too many old animes when we were younger I guess.

I have made quite a few different characters with 4IPs. A few gun bunnies and a few melee combat monsters. I gave a couple of them martail arts with the finishing move maneuver
and when combined with multiple IPs it works out great. I have also combined it with the full offense maneuver. Both work great when your target has already used up all of their
IPs and you still have more. You can pull off some very powerful attacks and still be able to defend yourself against any other attacks when you pick and choose which IPs
you attack on and which ones you try to be more defensive on. After having many characters with increased IPs I would never play another one without one form or another with
them. I dont see it to be overpowering for the game either once you look at what is spent to get them and maintain them. Either your loosing a lot of essence, nuyen, power points,
or having to sustain a spell in one way or another.

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« Reply #21 on: <07-23-11/1755:50> »
I've never made a character with the full 4 IP.  It simply costs too much (essence, adept power points, power 4 sustaining focus).

For a mage, it's really not that hard. : )

The total cost is just 20 BP.

5 + 8 + 4  + 3 = 20

5BP (Restricted Gear) + 8BP (40,000 Nuyen) + 4BP (Force 4 Sustaining Focus) + 3 BP (Increase Reflexes Spell) = 20BP

20BP for 4 Initiative Passes is a pretty sweet deal. Certainly better than what samurai and adepts get. : )

(Of course, for Mages and Adepts, in a Background Count zone you're pretty fucked. It helps to carry around Cram or Jazz to take a little bit of the edge off in those situations, but it still hurts.)
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Shadowjack

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« Reply #22 on: <07-23-11/1927:16> »
You need a sustaining focus? That's good to know :P
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Valashar

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« Reply #23 on: <07-23-11/2042:26> »
At a slight tangent to the topic, 4th edition made it so that all neural-linked cyber could be switched off by the user (meaning your wires don't have to be on all the time, leaving it for when you know you're likely to mix it up or needing to use turn 1 to flip 'em on). In my campaigns I've added a bit to this... The user can decide to turn them on at a lower effective rating than their maximum (wires 3 only turned up to wires 1 for example), provided that the implant is at least alpha grade. This is for any cyber or nano implant (won't work on bio/genetics obviously).

Thoughts?
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FastJack

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« Reply #24 on: <07-24-11/0107:37> »
At a slight tangent to the topic, 4th edition made it so that all neural-linked cyber could be switched off by the user (meaning your wires don't have to be on all the time, leaving it for when you know you're likely to mix it up or needing to use turn 1 to flip 'em on). In my campaigns I've added a bit to this... The user can decide to turn them on at a lower effective rating than their maximum (wires 3 only turned up to wires 1 for example), provided that the implant is at least alpha grade. This is for any cyber or nano implant (won't work on bio/genetics obviously).

Thoughts?
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Mäx

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« Reply #25 on: <07-24-11/0237:36> »
20BP for 4 Initiative Passes is a pretty sweet deal. Certainly better than what samurai and adepts get. : )
Not that much in the case of warrior adepts, they can get it for 30BP if the GM allows.
20BP for 2 points of magic
10BP for Warriors Way
and then 2PP for geased increased reflexes 3.
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CanRay

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« Reply #26 on: <07-24-11/0241:43> »
At a slight tangent to the topic, 4th edition made it so that all neural-linked cyber could be switched off by the user (meaning your wires don't have to be on all the time, leaving it for when you know you're likely to mix it up or needing to use turn 1 to flip 'em on). In my campaigns I've added a bit to this... The user can decide to turn them on at a lower effective rating than their maximum (wires 3 only turned up to wires 1 for example), provided that the implant is at least alpha grade. This is for any cyber or nano implant (won't work on bio/genetics obviously).

Thoughts?
IIRC, that was a modification that you could add to them in previous editions to do that.  I know I've described the usage of such a thing in my stories (Jon "Money" Johnson has β-Grade Wired Reflexes 1 due to nerve damage from having a building fall on top of him.).  He usually has them off, but turns them on when expecting trouble.  Read my stories, see if you can spot the visual cue that I've given for it.  ;D
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farothel

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« Reply #27 on: <07-24-11/0331:00> »
You need a sustaining focus? That's good to know :P

You don't need it as such, but each spell you sustain makes you take a -2 penalty on all other actions, so for spells like this you try to have one.

And a mage needs to spend 15BP more (for the mage positive quality).  Also, they don't have them automatically, so if you roll bad at one point, you get stuck with only 1 or 2 IP instead of the 4 you were hoping for.  Also as already mentioned the background count can seriously hamper your abilities (goes also for the adept).  And there's also the drain you have to take each time you activate the spell.  Almost forgot: if you go through a mana barrier you have to turn the focus off (loosing the spell) or break through the barrier (and risk alerting the owner).
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Shadowjack

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« Reply #28 on: <07-24-11/0358:15> »
Thanks for the info :) Very helpful actually. I am starting to see  how it is all nicely balanced.
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Valashar

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« Reply #29 on: <07-24-11/1321:21> »
IIRC, that was a modification that you could add to them in previous editions to do that.  I know I've described the usage of such a thing in my stories (Jon "Money" Johnson has β-Grade Wired Reflexes 1 due to nerve damage from having a building fall on top of him.).  He usually has them off, but turns them on when expecting trouble.  Read my stories, see if you can spot the visual cue that I've given for it.  ;D

Yep, there was a wires add-on that had to be implanted at the same time as the wires to give the user control in 3rd edition (came out in Shadowtech, same book as c-zombies). 4th edition cyber just took that and made it a standard feature of all neuro-linked cyber.
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