[Shinobi Killfist]

While this is a GM call I am just curious how other GMs handle this, or if you were a GM how would you handle it.  How do you determine when a skill a player wants is a knowledge skill or when it is a new active skill?

One of the GMs I play with makes the distinction when it actually does something other than just having information.  So for example I personally like to cook/bake so I wanted that on a character and in his eyes that was a active skill because you just don't know about baking a cake, you are actually baking a cake. 

Now when I GM I base it more on what the skill will be used for.  Going back to cooking, cooking something isn't going to do anything for you in itself on a Run.  Probably at best it will give you some bonus dice on certain tests etiquette if you have someone over for dinner, disguise if you are pretending to be the caterer etc.  Which is pretty much all I expect out of a knowledge skill.  But you wont be baking a cake to solve a problem like you might use stealth skills or firearm skills. 

A 3rd GM switched us to hero for shadowrun and well they have profession skills, knowledge skills, science skills etc. to make this a bit easier. 

[Makki]

Active Skills are game relevant, knowledge skills are not 
That's why they introduced Chemistry as an active skill in Arsenal, while it hasn't been in the core book. They gave rules for what to do with it.
If your PC's just making bread in downtime, there's no need for it to be Active Skill, as you don't have an active game advantage of it. If you're an Adept Chef with Enthralling Performance (Cooking), than it becomes relevant and an active skill.

[Valashar]

Chemistry was moved to the core book in SR4A, iirc.

One thing I do in my campaigns is I figure that if you have the active skill, then you have its equivalent knowledge skill at active skill rating -2.

[Bull]

I wouldn't quite say that...

Let's put it this way.  Active Skills are things you can do.  Knowledge Skills are things you know.

Having a Knowledge Skill in Chemistry means you know the periodic table.  You know the difference between a base and an acid.  But you can't make homemade chemicals in your basement.  All you have is the acedemic theories. 

Another, better example... knowledge Firearms.  You can rattle off make, model, ammo counts, velocities, etc for guns.  Doesn't mean you can hit the broad side of a barn though.  That's the active skill.

Obviously there's some loose correlations between skills that differ depending on the type of skill.  For Firearms, you can be an expert marksman but not know anything about guns.  You don't know nor care who made your gun, you juts know you can pick it up and deadeye a target at 500 meters.

With Chemistry though...  Chances are you'd have to know a bit about Chemistry and chemicals to mix chemicals and actually use the Chemistry Active Skill.

So, you milage varies, and it's going to be up to the GM.  But the rule of thumb should be...  if it's something you actively DO, then it's an Active Skill.  If it's something you simply know, then it's a Knowledge skill.

And I miss 3rd Eds complimentary skills, BTW. Because they let you utilize Knowledge Skills in an attempt to put knowledge into practice.  Ahh well.

bull

[UmaroVI]

Would you actually charge a PC 12 BP to know how to bake cakes professionally?

[CanRay]

Without having to resort to a recipe book constantly, yes. 

[UmaroVI]

I guess that is in keeping with SR4's philosophy that Pilot: Hot Air Balloon and Perception should cost the same amount of points.

[Charybdis]

Without having to resort to a recipe book constantly, yes. 

Also, any professional chef will show you the Active skills required to cook/bake/present properly.

- Ever caramelised onions?  (deliberately, and still have them be edible afterwards?)
- Make a souffle that stayed risen?
- Decorate a cake?

It's not just knowing a recipe in front of you (Knowledge skill).
It's being able to mix and utilise everything in a constructive manner (Active skill).

Same issue with chemistry. I know the theory and chemical components to make all sorts of nasty compounds, but damned if I could just make them up smoothly in a lab... (and you know, keep all my fingers and eyebrows...)

[Critias]

Active Skills are game relevant, knowledge skills are not 

There are plenty of knowledge skills that are game relevant...at least, in the games I run.  It helps to know who's who on the streets, in the boardrooms, etc, etc, doesn't it?  To know smuggling routes and shortcuts around the city?  To know the hangouts and safehouses?

Sure, I'll admit active skills get used more, and tend to be more directly "do or die," but knowledge skills are still plenty relevant in Shadowrun.

[CanRay]

A lack of practical experience is why I'm not an expert gunslinger or demolitions expert. 

[Blond Goth Girl]

Many things can be termed as Active skill but can serve as a knowledge as well.

Since cooking is an example I'm well familiar (seafood gumbo last game session), I'll expand on that.  As an active skill, I know how to sautee onions first and add the other ingredients in order so everything becomes done at the same time without being over-cooked.  I know what ingredients to use so there's knowledge in that skill. 

In other words, default to an active skill if it can be used to do something but active skills can be used as a knowledge also.  To further prove knowledge, I know that margarine is a tool of the devil and only use real butter.

[UmaroVI]

I'm not saying that it is inconsistent with Shadowrun's definition of Knowledge versus Active skills to charge people the same for "Active" background skills that will almost never come up in game as for useful shadowrunning skills like Perception or Firearms or Hacking. My point is that it's one of the bad points of Shadowrun's game design that Active skills are equal in cost, but don't even pretend to be equal in usefulness.

Yeah, you can be like "well, if you want to be a professional baker, you need to pay 12 points for Baking 3, because it's an Active skill since you can use it to make bread." But what that really accomplishes is just shafting a random selection of character concepts, and changing "Knowledge" skills to "Background" skills (and throwing in stuff like Artisan and Pilot: Hot Air Balloon and Parachuting, while we're at it) would make the game better and not discourage people from having certain types of background skills.

In before "hurr hurr, role-playing not roll-playing."

[squee_nabob]

What game are you playing Umaro? Because it’s clearly not Shadowrun.

All of the professional bakers died off in Crash 2.0, and were replaced by skill wired wage slaves because it is more dystopian than automating the process.

[Tsuzua]

I'm not saying that it is inconsistent with Shadowrun's definition of Knowledge versus Active skills to charge people the same for "Active" background skills that will almost never come up in game as for useful shadowrunning skills like Perception or Firearms or Hacking. My point is that it's one of the bad points of Shadowrun's game design that Active skills are equal in cost, but don't even pretend to be equal in usefulness.

There's also the problem that skills are really expensive in SR.  It'll be one thing if you're only spending a point or whatever to have Baking 3.  It's even worse when it costs 12 points (or +1 to an attribute and change or 60000Y) to do so.

I do think Knowledge skills should be background skills.  They're cheap enough and more importantly you get a lot for free so you can burn some on cool stuff like baking, rock music, and elven wine and not just grab the more useful ones. 

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah I guess I just treat knowledge skills more like background skills because to me it does not make sense to charge someone that much for something like baking.  I find that if I do no one takes skills like that.  It is all I'll take Triad Hideouts 3 for my knowledge skills and oh shoot you in the face repeatedly skill for my active skills.