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Skinlink

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hobgoblin

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« Reply #15 on: <07-11-11/1925:12> »
The advantage of skinlink is that it's a "hardwired" connection (Of sorts).

But, speaking as a computer tech, the only way I can see the skin working as a networking agent is as a Hub at best.  Datastorms galore.  Putting more than three or four items on the system would cause datastorms galore.  From that standpoint, I'd suggest limiting it to things you certainly don't want hacked, such as a Smartgun.
Dunno, wifi is basically a hub like media. As such there should be little difference in behavior between using wifi and using skinlink. In a sense one is using the skin to put a faraday cage around the PAN.
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Deliverator

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« Reply #16 on: <07-11-11/1940:46> »
Its a pretty simple idea similar to wireless networking. You have an identification packet traveling through the same media as every other identification packet, but your device (weapon, goggles, comlink, whatever) all have their own individual address and only receive information sent to that address through your skin. Same way wireless devices communicate using a handshake system. "Hello Ares Predator IV, are you there?" "Yes I am here" "Go bang bang bang" bang bang bang "Action completed"

CanRay

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« Reply #17 on: <07-11-11/2008:18> »
Dunno, wifi is basically a hub like media. As such there should be little difference in behavior between using wifi and using skinlink. In a sense one is using the skin to put a faraday cage around the PAN.
Wifi is a Router- or Switch-like media.  There aren't many Wireless Hubs that I've seen, but quite a few Wireless Routers with the rare Wireless Switch.  The CommLink certainly works as a Wireless Router.

Just did a quick search, there are Wireless Hubs, but I haven't seen any in use anywhere personally.  Of course, most of the places I go are either owned by fellow techs, or have had one of my fellow techs or myself asked for how to set things up.
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #18 on: <07-12-11/0900:42> »
Dunno, wifi is basically a hub like media. As such there should be little difference in behavior between using wifi and using skinlink. In a sense one is using the skin to put a faraday cage around the PAN.
Wifi is a Router- or Switch-like media.  There aren't many Wireless Hubs that I've seen, but quite a few Wireless Routers with the rare Wireless Switch.  The CommLink certainly works as a Wireless Router.

Just did a quick search, there are Wireless Hubs, but I haven't seen any in use anywhere personally.  Of course, most of the places I go are either owned by fellow techs, or have had one of my fellow techs or myself asked for how to set things up.
Your looking at it the wrong way. On a hub setup, every device plugged into the hub can read the signal any device send into the hub. Is that not also the behavior of a wifi signal or a skinlink signal? Hell, back in the day ethernet did not use hubs but a coax "bus". But for ethernet it was no difference, as the behavior is pretty much the same. Listen for a quiet spot in the traffic. transmit package. read package back. if result is garbled, wait for a random time and try again. Wifi is in no way switched, as anyone within receiving range of the transmission can pick it up. That one can get switches or routers with a wifi antenna built in do not change this fact.
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #19 on: <07-12-11/1100:10> »
hear now! don't run away from new ideas. A properly prepared hacker/drone rigger could have some serious fun with a properly employed skinlink mod on a drone. the drone itself would be slightly smaller than medium size (body 2 or 3, maybe 1). a small walker or an anthroform, quiet, unassuming, preferably cute or resembling a cleaning or repair drone (the less likely it is to be shot proactively, the better). when the individual who is known to be cybernetically enhanced isn't paying attention, the drone will attach itself to the unsuspecting sammie and the rigger will have a wonderful shot at gaining control.

obviously the sammy would get willpower [maybe strength] rolls to try to resist what his tech is doing, but that would have to be with his meat parts, since his previously stated tech would be following the riggers orders.

this would be a direct hack upon a persons meat body, likely effects would be inherently based upon what the victim possesses for cyberware (storytellers call). Likely systems affected from this method could be as follows: wired reflexes, muscle replacements, cyberlimbs, anything with a dni interface, etc... systems decidedly not affected by this method are as follows: anything organic, free floating nanobots (unless hive is contacted), and various items not connected via dni.

obviously this technique would do little against those who are not heavily cybered, and is extremely risky against fellow hackers who would then posssess a direct link back to the rigger/puppetmaster. resistance rolls would likely be exclusive actions, (the victim is fighting his own body), whether it ends up as a willpower or hacking challenge.

so... anyone rethinking skinlink yet?

Oh noes!  :o

But wait - DNI trumps your external attack for the Cyberware, and a Cyber Safety system is zero Essence cost (making it effectively free from the point of view of most Street Samurai), so their weapons will be able to override any attempt to gain control, as well.

Come to think of it, I may have my merc jack his commlink in. The Wifi is off, but it's Skinlinked as his PAN hub...on the other hand, I don't think anyone's ever had their brain fried via Skinlink. Hmmm...hacked commlink vs PAN-fried brains. Maybe I'll just leave that Skinlinked, after all!

-Jn-
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« Last Edit: <07-12-11/1102:10> by JoeNapalm »

CanRay

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« Reply #20 on: <07-12-11/1223:33> »
One point I always give for datacables, especially for smartguns, is that they can be used as lanyards.

Very handy when you need to drop something damned fast, but still have it available to you.
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Onion Man

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« Reply #21 on: <07-12-11/1524:46> »
All wireless media behaves as a hub.

Every signal for every device communicating in a wireless cell must receive and sort out which signal belongs to each device.  The wireless device itself most likely operates as a switch, which is to say that it makes switching decisions based on layer 3 information (and is thus faster than) rather than layer 4 information (like a router), less encapsulation to get to the information it needs.

It is in no way impossible for wireless devices to have 2 way communication when only one device has a signal range adequate to reach the other device.  This is exactly how modern mobile phones work.  I've explained this in much greater detail in other threads already.
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usefulidiot

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« Reply #22 on: <07-16-11/1042:27> »
We have a pair of brothers in our gaming group who are always messing with eachothers characters. Such as getting into street fights, pulling pranks, driving off in the getaway car before their both in it then going around the block and picking them up. At one point one of them was playing a technomancer and the other was playing a sorta jack of trades. The one playing the technomancer would hack the others stuff and spam him with silly stuff just to mess with him. They never took it to the point where they jeperdized the others life, just brotherly fun. So the one playing the jack of trades starting putting skinlinks on anything he could to prevent this, such as his guns, his smartlink goggles, his comlink, his hand held radar.

lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #23 on: <07-22-11/1148:56> »
Ok here's the thing, skinlink is pretty dumb. It's a piece of magic tech "that just works". If it followed even the slightest bit of real world common sense it would be vulnerable as all get out to any sort of jamming, we're talking very very low signal strength modulated just right. Instead it is "magic wires", unjammable, mostly unhackable. By a one line statement in unwired cyberware is also presumed to be skinlink capable if you want it, so it's not as much skinlink as it is bodylink.

Now having said that cyberware hacking is also stupid as all hell as it basically discourages people to play cybered characters and instead get more Magicrun going on. I tend to presume that anything that doesn't have a direct benefit from being network capable will not be connected to any kind of networking. There's no benefit to putting your cyberlimbs on your pan so their out, ditto you wires, internal air tank etc.. Cybereyes and ears start to get somewhere as at least those you might be piping your pan in order to send it to somewhere else. But the most I allow people is subtle data maniplation (generally allowing the target intuition + logic or perception to notice the manipulation) or blanking the sense completely at least until the target can spend a simple to reboot their gear.

So in closing, skinlink is great for getting your gear to be accessible to your pan and for reducing your broacast footprint, but unless your specifically running separate links for your gear all skinlinked and another comlink that you use for communication with the outside world your not really closing any vulnerabilities just making them harder to get at.

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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #24 on: <07-23-11/0238:42> »
unless your specifically running separate links for your gear all skinlinked and another comlink that you use for communication with the outside world

Why wouldn't this be standard practice for anyone remotely conscious of their personal network security?


-k

lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #25 on: <07-27-11/1056:56> »
In part because it's a hassle, even smart people are suckers for convenience so you could be inconvenienced all the time to protect against a very very small occurance, or you could have all your stuff just works. Secondly a lot of players on here seem to want to have a level of security that in my mind most of their runners wouldn't have the knowledge to implement or see the need to. As a personal rule of thumb unless a character has hacking/cracking at at least one I presume they've gotten the big stuff but are missing some of the smaller fiddly bits and back doors.
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CanRay

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« Reply #26 on: <07-27-11/1530:52> »
In part because it's a hassle, even smart people are suckers for convenience so you could be inconvenienced all the time to protect against a very very small occurance, or you could have all your stuff just works. Secondly a lot of players on here seem to want to have a level of security that in my mind most of their runners wouldn't have the knowledge to implement or see the need to. As a personal rule of thumb unless a character has hacking/cracking at at least one I presume they've gotten the big stuff but are missing some of the smaller fiddly bits and back doors.
You want proof of this?

I could tell you stories of having to support wireless home networks that were as secure as a screen door on the ISS.

I could also tell you about callers that were almost as stable as Windows ME.
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Lacynth40

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« Reply #27 on: <07-28-11/0218:50> »
Seriously, though. Most runners AREN'T solo acts. A heavily cybered gun bunny would be toast going against megas without a hacker. And the hacker's job isn't JUST to hack through security so the gun bunny can kill everyone. The hacker, or a skilled rigger, is supposed to assist the team with their electronic securities.

First thing my hackers do when they first join a group, is to hack every member of the group. For the mage with just a commlink, have an agent stand-by ready to spam call that thing, setting it off without warning. For the cybered gun bunny, take him over, and make him dance. For the sprawl gangers... They got some nasty second-hand cyber that's easier and cleaner just to shut off.... And it keeps their tempers in check if they can't pummel you immediately... As for anyone else, just wave an RFID detector over them, and tell them what they had for breakfast.

There is NO excuse for a runner not to know about that stuff. The hacker of the team should be telling them all of this, for self-preservation, if for nothing else. His hoop's gonna get shot at too...
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lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #28 on: <07-28-11/0601:19> »
First off, if your GM is letting you hack ware and make the street sams dance theres no help for them it doesn't follow the rules even in the slightest. Secondly hacking your teammates ware would get you killed at the tables I play at no matter how helpful you were trying to be.

As the old saying goes, if your going to tell someone the truth be funny or they'll kill you. Most characters take exception to their internals being tampered with.
"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

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Lacynth40

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« Reply #29 on: <07-28-11/0721:18> »
First off, if the Street Sam doesn't know NOT to link his 'ware up his commlink, it's going to be set-up that way. It makes it easier for the Mega's and KE to shut down the cybered trolls. So, it's sold and installed that way. Only makes sense. Secondly, cyberlimbs are computerized. There is a controlling computer in there, as simple as it may be. If a hacker gets into your cyberlimbs, they can make those limbs do ANYTHING within normal operational parameters. It's in Unwired if you don't believe me. Page 102. RAW, pure RAW. In fact, it uses taking over cyberlimbs as an example.

As for making them all look foolish, you point out that if you were a security hacker in a corp, you would have been able to end them all by now. Better to know, and have you fix their crap, than getting dusted by the Megas. Those that don't see it that way, well, the hacker already has access to their cyberlimbs. Let 'em take a long walk off a short pier.
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"If violence begat violence, in every case, every human on the planet would instantly devolve into gibbering murderers in a day."