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Shadowrun and the way it was...

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John Schmidt

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« on: <06-29-11/1409:27> »
Bull and I sat down for an interview at Origins...before the camera was turned on we discussed a plethora (under used word) of Shadowrun topics. One of which was touched upon in another thread, refraining from thread jacking I decided to start a new topic here.  ;)

There was a time when Shadowrun had reached an apex in popularity (at least as far as sales were concerned). Bull drew an interesting correlation, it was at a point in time when you had a slew of really excellent and well known SR websites. Blackjack's page, Raygun's page, Hoosier Hacker House, Big Knoobi Klub, Deep Resonance, Grifter's Shadow, and many...many more were in existence and providing fan based content. It was more than just content though, it was visibility and a perceived vitality that served to inject the gaming equivalent of adrenaline into GM's and players alike. Much in the same manner that attending GenCon can instill an enthusiasm by being surrounded by 30,000 like minded souls!

I believe that for Shadowrun to once more scale that summit of popularity that it needs to have that same level of support from the fans.

So...what say you?
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

desdinova81

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« Reply #1 on: <06-29-11/1448:59> »
I was around back in those days and I definately think the high quality and easy availablility of fan site material was definately a factor in the game's popularity.  Whenever I was trying to convince a new player to get into the game, Blackjack's was one of the first things I showed them.

John Schmidt

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« Reply #2 on: <06-29-11/1459:23> »
His site was great and he had some great advice for GM's and players. Blackjack is one of those people who's departure has really been felt within the community (IMHO). While there were certainly other sites that had more content the quality of his content was extremely impressive to me.

Desdinova81, I am glad that you are still with us!  :)
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

DireRadiant

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« Reply #3 on: <06-29-11/1634:46> »
Chicken and Egg.

Were there more great fan sites because there were more fans?

You could also argue that most of the good fan content has been co opted into the game itself. The best material has been brought into the current version of the game, as well as the best fans as direct contributors rather then independent ones.

You'd have to evaluate the overall available material in terms of quantity and quality over the population of fans to really say that it has declined in relative or absolute terms.

My personal perception is that the relative quality is higher, and has been brought in house, rather than residing in exterior fan sites.

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #4 on: <06-29-11/1701:55> »
"Well, you told me I have a plethora. And I just would like to know if you know what a plethora is. I would not like to think that a person would tell someone he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has no idea what it means to have a plethora."
-- El Guapo

Well said, DireRadiant.

I would also suggest that perhaps the apex in Shadowrun popularity coincided with a boom in the table-top RPG industry. Maybe that's just anecdotal, but it seems that back in the '90s and early '00s, there was simply more happening in the pen & paper scene. Sort of the Second Age of RPGs. White Wolf was huge, TSR was still semi-coherent, CP2020 was expanding, WHFRP, GURPs...I could rattle off a plethora of gaming systems that were all experiencing sort of a groundswell of support around the same era.

That audience has aged, and has less disposable free time...the next generation seems to be more interested in either computer-based content (MMOGs, JRPGs, whatever) or "WoWified" 4e D&D...*shudder*...

Not that I have scientific studies to back me up on this - just observation of the gaming landscape around me.

-Jn-
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Stahlseele

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« Reply #5 on: <06-29-11/1810:42> »
Aunty Ancient just took his Page down . .
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it." - Field Marshall Erwin Rommel
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Chrona

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« Reply #6 on: <06-29-11/1820:37> »
Aunty Ancient just took his Page down . .

NOOOOOOOOOO

ARGH his PACKS, infected info, artifacts list and earthdawn stuff were so useful!

ARGH

*Edit* whew way back machine salvages some of it


*edit2*Okay okay panic averted, just saw UA's back up he posted on dumpshock
but now there's copyightness to worry about....
« Last Edit: <06-29-11/1837:34> by Chrona »

CanRay

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« Reply #7 on: <06-29-11/1833:34> »
It was also the day of the fan-made webpage too.  Less so of that sort of thing now.

Then again, back when I was GMing...
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Chrona

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« Reply #8 on: <06-29-11/1838:20> »
It was also the day of the fan-made webpage too.  Less so of that sort of thing now.

Then again, back when I was GMing...

I already have you bookmarked for a rainy days read

CanRay

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« Reply #9 on: <06-29-11/1844:41> »
If I ever get gaming again (And find some artists, perhaps), maybe I'll pick this up again...
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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bigity

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« Reply #10 on: <06-29-11/1900:11> »
I've played SR since day one, and I can honestly say, the existence of fan web pages means nothing to me.  Dumpshock was nice as a place to ask about rules or talk about fluff, and the MUXes were great for playing SR online before Skype and other tools.

Otherwise, I never really saw how having alot of sites with generally questionable material makes a game thrive or not. 

Now, the great sites definitely helped me, but would they really bring in new players and generate sales?  It seems doubtful.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #11 on: <06-29-11/1902:11> »
You could also argue that most of the good fan content has been co opted into the game itself. The best material has been brought into the current version of the game, as well as the best fans as direct contributors rather then independent ones.
This. This is important because the same time that web fandom seems to have declined, fandom's impact on the game itself skyrocketed.

There are a lot of factors. The reason for the decline can be attributed to a number of factors (FASA closing being far and away the biggest according to everyone I've talked to about the sudden drop off in support around 2000-2001). Some of the most popular sites also had server and other technical issues around the same time for various reasons, and that drove people away. FanPro making a home at DS helped it, but Shadowland never recovered from its high of having over 10,000 users after the Great Crash. It didn't help that around the time that happened Dave Hyatt—who had become a freelancer writing RA:S and Brainscan—no longer had any interest in running what was until the end the most technically sophisticated SR website ever because he had to go do stupid shit like invent Firefox, Safari, and Dashboard for OS X. If Grifter was who I recall him to be (AKA Corwin), then he's a piece of shit who was run off, and good riddance.

Technically, no one has homepages that they can make into fan sites—which is what the web was when it began. SR has had one of the largest and most organized online fandoms since before there was a World Wide Web. But now it's blogs and social media. Internet usage is going down except for Facebook. Shadowrun has over 12,000 fans on there. CGL and Jason have twitter feeds. But let's not pretend that the pieces of shit spreading the bullshit rumors of CGL's/SR's doom for the last two years hasn't hurt the game itself. It has. Fans can be bastards, too.

But the main point is important. All of the freelancers that followed the creators were fans. Peter Taylor showed that a committed effort by fans can really affect things. He went from a dude on DS to Line Developer in six-seven years and had an indelible impact on the line beyond the original EuroSB/Shadows of Europe project.

The product has changed as well. I always held that there were plenty of people who came before Bobbie Derie and plenty who would come after. Now, I'm not so sure. Who needs an archivist when you can search every products made in the last decade simultaneously?

Access to information has changed, too. Unless you want to go all-out and create new stuff (Novel for SR at times, I know), in which case it is irrelevant, you don't need the NAGEE writeups of Pueblo and Vegas; Blackjack's pieces on Philly; or the Shadows of Winnipeg, MSP, or Cleveland. This is actually related to the last tumblr post I made: Micro + Macro Setting Info, and Expansion, Generally. In 22 years, especially in the last decade, Shadowrun has finally covered most of the world. It's less of a mystery, and less of a blank slate to do whatever you want with. Ten years ago, there was still mystery: The only location books were for North America (including Aztlan), Hawaii, London, and Germany. FanPro gave us Australia, Shadows of Europe, and Shadows of Asia. The SR4 locations books gave us chapters or briefs on South America, Africa, Europe, most parts of Asia. We have two decades worth of storyline and major characters. No one feels a compelling interest to make their own NPC lists because ... FASA, FanPro, and CGL all got around to doing it themselves.

No one puts character sheets up anymore because since 1994 there were places where you could pit your PCs vs. those of someone living 10,000 miles away. The official forums even have a PBP area. So the info's out there, but only if you're looking for it. It's not the entirety of some dude's page that comes up when you hit Random on the Shadowrun Web Ring.

And, yes, people come and go. Different fans have different compelling reasons to provide information. My first writing collaborator stopped writing about SR specfor when he went to become a Navy SEAL. The second one was into designing weapons, and there is so much stuff in SR now what's the point? When FASA basically appropriated Peter Milhollands' Firearms Creation Guide (that Raygun modified and ran with. But the original FCG was Spud's) we had a vigorous discussion, especially in light of him studying IP law in law school at the time. What ultimately happened was instead he became a freelancer, and then he disappeared off the face of the Earth. A lot of PBEM/PBP players are writing what is in fact collaborative fiction. Well, guess what. The guy who won all of tisoz's fiction contests is a freelancer now. We don't play/write together anymore for fun much—it's our job now. He plays other games for fun. I am (finally) learning Battletech and Hero.

But mainly, it's the fact that the Shadowrun community has grown closer through message boards like this and DS. I can say, "Go back and look at BKK or Blackjack. They're not as good as you remember." And they aren't. What they had were site authors who constantly updated their pages. Let's not pretend that most SR sites weren't just basic HTML that someone put up once when they got a free public_html folder as part of their college account and then never touched it again. Those guys are exceptional because they were so uncommon. They had pages, and folders, and images. They updated the pages, and they provided a fairly decent amount of content compared to 95% of SR pages on the WWW. But even the "good" ones died when they weren't maintained. That some of them were hosted beginning around ten years ago by the de facto official message board/site didn't do anyone any favors—the authors, DS, or FanPro for giving them some imprimatur of official sanction. Same as the timeline explorer never getting fixed or updated (Again, a decade ago). Same with the wiki now.

The games evolves. The fanbase evolves. Fact is that the "Good" sites got good word of mouth because that's really how you found them. You pop into r.g.f.c or ShadowRN and ask "Hey, what's a good site?" Now you hit Google. You visit the FB fan page. You visit the official website and the official forums. If you want to put a free site together, you're pretty much limited to a blog format: tumblr, wordpress, blogspot, or livejournal for the fossils. Geocities is GONE. Qwest and Comcast don't give you a free homepage when you sign up now (to my knowledge). If you want to host a website, you have to host a website. Even Mac.com charges you a fee. I can't even get around to buying a domain name for my close friends to host a full-blown site. But what is a full-blown SR site going to be or look like anymore? Every creative content producer I know has insisted that they need to maintain a broad spectrum presence. You need a regular website (which is often a mirror of your tumblr), a tumblr, a twitter stream, a FB fan page, and so on. There is so much media that there isn't time for much content. No one cares if you dump a half-meg of setting info on the message board anymore. You do that in a ShadowRN e-mail in 1994 and you're in deep shit.

I think the idea of a Good Old Days is just that: an idea. Nostalgia is a motherfucker. I can't stand it. Nothing is going to bring back Shadowland. Even if it did, it wouldn't be the same because I am not the person I was five, ten, fifteen years ago (I hope). A new gamer now doesn't necessarily want the experience I want. I wanted to game without having to deal with, ugh, other gamers IRL. Now I do. But if someone has a cool idea and content, they're probably going to publish it here and/or DS. That way you get instant feedback and someone else eats all the costs and BS of hosting the data.
« Last Edit: <06-29-11/1913:48> by Crimsondude »

Crash_00

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« Reply #12 on: <06-29-11/2002:47> »
I've got to completely agree with Crimson here.

I remember first coming across Blackjacks when I was twelve and printing out the stats for the Mr. Coverfire and begging my GM to my combat medic have one. Now though, I feel like all of that information could just as well be posted on these boards if people wanted to.

The internet has changed, the industry has changed, and in general people are greedier with their ideas and time than they used to be. I've got a buddy that writes all his adventures out and formats them just like Shadowrun missions, but he won't post them for anyone to use because he's worried they'll get stolen without giving him credit. On the other hand, he publishes all his D&D/Pathfinder stuff because with the open game license he can make money off of it. This is the same kind of material that used to be published for free on every single RPG fan site you came across.

Look at how the popularity of D&D soared with 3rd edition and now with 4th edition. Many people will say that's its because of the simplicity of the system, but I thoroughly believe that it was the OGL that did it. One system for every game people wanted to play (too bad it couldn't have been a better one).

I personally think that Shadowrun could gain some popularity by adopting a similar model. Allowing 3rd parties to use the system for their own settings and possibly allowing 3rd parties to publish SR adventures. That said, I would definitely impose a system of checks for any 3rd party material printed for the SR universe (or any others if CGL decided to use the same system for other RPGs of their creation) for quality purposes and force a non-canon statement on the first page of all 3rd party books, but that's just my nature.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #13 on: <06-29-11/2036:27> »
Of course you agree. I'm always right. :)

The third-party thing is a bit more complicated since there's an IP holder and licensees. I think if Mafia Wars can make Zynga worth billions that a SR version designed by someone like Dave (or him, but not likely) would kick its ass. Problem is that the legalities are a mess. I have some business ideas I want to discuss with Jason and Randall, but might and probably would have to get Topps involved. No one wants that hassle for the miniscule amount of money involved.

Fan involvement has changed, but it is still strong. Most games will never have near the support SR does now and has had in the aggregate. Propriety over IP had also changed a lot. Information may want to be free, but I don't know anyone who wants THEIR INFORMATION to be free anymore. Even now I hold stuff too the vest from everyone so I can have credit when it is used in the next project. However, I have also refused to propose stuff for even more selfish reasons. I'm thirty-plus. I'm getting paid, damn it.

Crash_00

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« Reply #14 on: <06-29-11/2123:44> »
Yes, it seems that everything these days has to be a pain legally.

I majored in computer science, so most of the legal issues I keep up with are in that field. There was almost an entire year where the precedent had been set that if you named an MMO character (we'll use World of Warcraft as the example) with a name that is against to ToU (for instance in WoW you are not allowed to have the name of a famous person as your character name, so we'll say Aldrin (as in Buzz Aldrin the astronaut)) you break your license and would be committing copyright infringement every time you log on the character.

Things like that make me wish I had an ounce of control over our laws, stupid me for always liking the independent candidates.

As for the IP issues, I would think the key (and I'm not a lawyer so I am most likely wrong since it makes logical sense) would be a separation of Setting (i.e. all the shadowrun material) from the system (i.e. the rules that make it work). For instance, instead of calling the system SR4A (for Shadowrun Fourth Edition Anniversary), you would have Shadowrun Fourth Edition using the Hit System (or whatever it was to be named).

Then you could also have Dark Dank Places and Great Big Worms: A Fantasy RPG using the Hit System (I personally feel that the SR4 system makes a great fantasy base). In fact, I've actually played in more non-SR games using the SR4 system than I have played SR games with it and I can say its worked wonderfully for everything from pulp indiana jones style adventures to hardcore action Terminator style games.

I wasn't condemning the greediness (I havn't posted my material anywhere since my Living Greyhawk adventure proposals were published with all credit to the regional coordinator I sent them to), and I do feel that we should get paid for work that makes the game better. I was merely stating that this is the general fan attitude today as opposed to the "Good Old Days" when people were happy just to get feedback on their ideas.