[farothel]

That's one of the reasons to keep the body count low.  If you start slaughtering every guard and janitor you meet in a corp, they will allocate more resources to find you and at that point these discrepancies will show up.

[Irian]

Sometimes, it seems to me, that the whole SIN concept in Shadowrun is unclear at best, perhaps even nonsense at some points. For example, Spy Games states, that a rating 1 SIN has no confirming databases. But honestly, why is it worth 1.000¥ then? A random number? Every monkey can make up a number by randomly pressing keys. Imho, the important things ARE the databases. Higher SINs also have optional data connected to them, for example blog postings, indicating that the person behind the SIN really exists, that makes sense, but the basic thing should be the question "Is this SIN stored in the government's database?".

It also seems unclear, if the designers meant for a SIN to be variable. I think, that a SIN (the number, not the Identity often also called "SIN") should never, ever change. It's a primary key, modifying it in any way doesn't make any sense. Either every database every storing this SIN has to be updated as well or the old SIN has to stay valid, too, then it would be possible to use the SIN variant I currently prefer.

Also, the Criminal SIN thing. Some people seem to read into the rules, that normal citizens can get their SIN marked as criminal, but the rules also give SINless people a criminal SIN, if they commit a crime. But these people can't, of course, get citizenship through this criminal SIN, as otherwise, every SINless person would only need to commit one theft to become a citizen. So a criminal SIN can only indicate, that the person isn't a citizen, but was assigned a criminal SIN for storing his data.

Or the SIN checks, beside the fact, that a 1-6 vs. 1-6 check is too random, I often hear, that people think, that every store checks your SIN. But that would make the SIN databases totally public - including foreign ones. Every chinese store owner can access the american SIN registry. And what for? A typical store doesn't care if the SIN is legit, if someone buys a coke. The store only cares if the bank says "Ok, money transfered". So personally, I think, for a store, a valid bank account is 1.000 times more important than the SIN. The typical store can safely assume, that the bank that sends the money has already validated the SIN of the bank account owner.
When buying something with a licence, yes, then the store needs to validate it, of course. But for a coke?

Am I the only one a little bit confused about the whole thing?

[Irian]

After reading over it again and again I think I found the main problem: The term "criminal SIN" is used in two contexts. First, as a term for the negative quality, meaning a SINner with a criminal record. And second, when talking about what happens to SINless people who get arrested for commiting a crime. Imho, the error here is to use the same term for both of them.

[Red Canti]

We're talking about Shadowrunners. ONE Fingerprint left on a run - all your SINs are suddenly dead?

This is why all Shadowrun getaway procedure should include leaving fake fingerprints all over the place. If only for the looks on the Forensic Guys faces when they match one such fingerprint with Damien Knight. Or someone equally ridiculous.

Irian: But walking around without a SIN is a crime. At least as I understand it.

[Crash_00]

If you're a SINner and you commit a crime, you get a criminal SIN. If your are sinless and you commit a crime, you get a criminal SIN. Same term, because its the same thing. I always took it to mean that if you already have a SIN, its marked as criminal and if you are a SINless you merely get a SIN that marks you a criminal. The other data in the SIN would determine citizenship, ect.

[The Dweller]

Or the SIN checks, beside the fact, that a 1-6 vs. 1-6 check is too random, I often hear, that people think, that every store checks your SIN. But that would make the SIN databases totally public - including foreign ones. Every chinese store owner can access the american SIN registry. And what for? A typical store doesn't care if the SIN is legit, if someone buys a coke. The store only cares if the bank says "Ok, money transfered". So personally, I think, for a store, a valid bank account is 1.000 times more important than the SIN. The typical store can safely assume, that the bank that sends the money has already validated the SIN of the bank account owner.
When buying something with a licence, yes, then the store needs to validate it, of course. But for a coke?
Am I the only one a little bit confused about the whole thing?

I think the simple answer might be 'the future is a crazy place.'  Now for the complicated part.

Its a tough world and the Megas pretty much determine the rules (Yes, UCAS instituted SINS, but when was the last time you saw politicians make policy without lobbyists and special interests hiding somewhere in their closet).

Now lets look at that coke.  Society in Shadowrun is much more stratified and code enforced that what we deal with today.  If you slot a certified credstick at the local Stuffer Shack, the coke is yours no hassle.  That's so long as you're not trying to buy that coke in an upscale district (where you probably won't find a Stuffer Shack anyways).  The same is likely going to hold true if you use a low rating fake SIN at the Shack (as its not going to have much of a verification rating).

But you're asking for why.  Lets assume that in Shadowrun times whenever someone were to use a credit/debit transaction the automated system always wants to see the purchaser's identification (kind of like it used to be for us before retail went soft and simply wanted to get their money without worrying where it was coming from).  If you wonder why they want to know who you are, you have to remember your important to them- spending habits, locations, etc equals marketing data that someone will use to make more money.  For this reason alone its worth them designing 'the system' to always ask for your ID.

So buying that Coke is just as important to the data collectors as buying that new Predator IV to generate spending data.  Which I guess isn't really that complicated after all. 

[The Dweller]

Almost forgot to add- the SIN is not a random number. The "actual numbers that compose a SIN are generated by a complex formula from several pieces of personal data." SR4a p.266

So those numbers include code that says your birthdate, state or country of origin, citizenship (if you have one) and your initials.  And that's whats there before you even get in to what Spy Games lists as included in a rating 1 or higher fake ID.

[CanRay]

Irian: But walking around without a SIN is a crime. At least as I understand it.

Depends on the country.

UCAS SINless are "Probationary Citizens" and have "Some" rights.  But certain areas require that you broadcast your SIN in order to gain access (Malls, for example), so they're not allowed due to a bylaw.  Also, the requirement a lot of places have on wireless credit transfers as the purchasing norm, not even working with certified credsticks any more, prevent them from being able to buy anything (No SIN, no bank account.  It's not discrimination, it's a taxation law that the banks are required to follow.).

Some countries (I'm looking at you, Aztlan!), you're just a non-citizen period, and if someone shoots you in broad daylight, the worst they can get arrested for is "Discharge of a firearm" and "Endangering the Public", as the bullet might have gone through the SINless guy and hit an actual citizen.

[Nath]

UCAS SINless are "Probationary Citizens" and have "Some" rights.

The "Probationary citizens" things was all around in previous editions, but it disappeared with the Fourth Edition. The corebook says not having a SIN is illegal (SR4, page 38 and SR4A, page 41), which I suppose should apply in the defaull, Seattle, UCAS-setting.

[CanRay]

Ah, that might have changed after the SINless Amnesty that happened just after Crash 2.0, and most SINless didn't hear about until AFTER it was over.

[Nath]

Before the Crash, the Haeffner administration launched a large SIN issue. In his 2062 State of the Union Address (in Shadows of North America), Haeffner announced as much as 300,000 probationary citizens (SINless) were made full citizens (SINner) and that the program would continue.

[CanRay]

And then got shot in the face with a classic Ares Predator, and it got blamed on nationalist extremists.

So may or may not be continuing.

[Lacynth40]

Way I read it, if you're SINless, you're SOL for the time being. If you couldn't be bothered to show up early for the SIN Amnesty Program, then we can't be bothered with giving you a SIN. Go turn yourself in, get a Criminal SIN, and while you are "housed" in ACHE, you can begin the process of naturalization. Not that hard....

[CanRay]

Military Service might be one way to get a SIN (I think I remember reading about how enlistment agencies had to move in Seattle to the Barrens as SINless couldn't ride busses any longer.).

But, as for the SIN Amnesty, I see it as a major vote production line for various PoliClubs, with their extremist members ensuring that "The Right Kind Of People" got those precious SINs (And would later vote the way they wanted to.).

[Crash_00]

In my world (which is far from canon in many ways) I've always given a valid UCAS/CAS SIN for a full twenty year military career by a SINless. Until that point they have a probationary SIN which is slightly more useful than a refugee SIN but requires all actions tied to the SIN reported back to the military.